British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   Take it Outside! (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/)
-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

DaveLovesDee Jul 7th 2016 7:32 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 11996497)
As it is now some businesses are unable to recruit suitable non-EU migrants because of number restrictions.

Evidence?


Originally Posted by GeniB (Post 11996542)
I'm at a loss here with you guys. La Manche and Lutonlad As far as I have EVER been aware EU migrants have had to have had a job in the country they move to.. I certainly did,My OH certainly did and ditto my YD. If you arrived without a job (my YD 5yrs ago when she followed us here) You had to show means of support ( her savings and us) You then had to apply for jobs like anyone else. YD found a job within three weeks and has never been without one since.There was no recourse to public funds of any sort. You have to have worked for a MINIMUM of 6 mths before you would be entitled to ONE MONTH of dole money...

Where on earth do people get this idea about sponging EU workers.?

When my wife and I moved to Malta in 2014, neither of us had a job lined up, only a couple of phone numbers/email addresses of people to contact once we'd arrived, as the companies weren't looking at anyone who wasn't resident in Malta. We had 3 months on arrival to find employment or register as self-employed to be able to apply for a Maltese Residence Card.

As for 'sponging EU workers', I've seen it argued elsewhere that the people complaining are referring to EU nationals getting tax credits. In which case, half of UK workers are also sponging. I think the more accurate term is subsiding employers.


Originally Posted by lutonlad (Post 11996348)
In simple terms.

Self Employed = NO
Self Sufficient = OK
Student = OK for course duration, having paid all fees and accommodation etc.

Why NO for self-employed? If someone wants to start a business, pay taxes, and likely hire more staff in the future, why is it a bad thing?

GeniB Jul 7th 2016 7:39 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 11996497)

I suppose if we consider the EU/Europe as one federal country then it is fair/right to have free movement of people from all the member countries but if we see ourselves as a separate nation with relationships with other countries of the world it could be seen as not fair. It seems the British people are divided on that fundamental premise.

Apologises to you too Bipat in chopping your post .. I just want to address this last part.

You see you have hit the nail on the head here. The UK HAD an agreement with the EU. of 40+ yrs standing. Doesn't it bother you that they have persistently tried to ignore ,evade and argue about the rules of that agreement.? Doesn't it bother you that they have played unfairly all these yrs. Trying to have the cake and eat it. The UK had ALWAYS KNOWN what the rules were. but have chosen to lie about them to the people.. They have acted as though they have been 'forced' to comply. whilst actually following their own rules i.e. the cheap labour, the black economy.The government doesn't want fair. they don't want equal.
This article in the Guardian.. was very interesting and food for thought.

http://gu.com/p/4nmck/sbl

spouse of scouse Jul 7th 2016 7:43 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 11996615)
It was a bad example anyway. I think I was thinking more of the potential effect on the UEFA coefficient if the league got less competitive, rather than the actual quality of the league and the passion of the players.

Scratch that one then :lol:

Don't listen too much to what I say, I'm Australian and I also like Aussie rules footy :lol:

Lion in Winter Jul 7th 2016 7:58 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 11996615)
It was a bad example anyway. I think I was thinking more of the potential effect on the UEFA coefficient if the league got less competitive, rather than the actual quality of the league and the passion of the players.

Scratch that one then :lol:

Football notwithstanding, why is it considered such a bad thing for people to work in each other's countries? The last estimates I saw show that about 5.5 million British citizens are living and working in other countries, and the foreign-born population of the UK is about 8.3 million, with 5.3 million of those being from outside the EU (Office of National Statistics 2014). So if Brits can make money in Dubai, Spain, France, the US, etc. etc. why can't Poles and everyone else work in the UK? It's pretty clear that the whole idea of national borders and what they mean in terms of employment and other economic activity has evolved, and there's no need to be afraid of that.

GeniB Jul 7th 2016 8:21 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 11996698)
Football notwithstanding, why is it considered such a bad thing for people to work in each other's countries? The last estimates I saw show that about 5.5 million British citizens are living and working in other countries, and the foreign-born population of the UK is about 8.3 million, with 5.3 million of those being from outside the EU (Office of National Statistics 2014). So if Brits can make money in Dubai, Spain, France, the US, etc. etc. why can't Poles and everyone else work in the UK? It's pretty clear that the whole idea of national borders and what they mean in terms of employment and other economic activity has evolved, and there's no need to be afraid of that.


Well I am one of those 5.5million Brits. My life has changed considerable because of the opportunities offered by living and working in the EU. I am greatly saddened that this generation and those to come will not have that now.or at least not so easily .They will be at the back of the queue.

The idea of the EU was to bring us together, to reduce the risk of our falling prey to the sort of conflicts like WW1 and WW2..To offer us the protection and strength of the Union. to promote understanding. and of course to allow us to trade freely. That the UK ,or rather some of the leaders within the UK have deliberately set out to twist those idea's and values. because of some misguided belief that we can somehow regain an Empire? Become ' Great' That being in the EU destroyed our sovereignty ,that they didn't follow the rules of democracy..That we had no control over our borders.. All these notions have been proven false. Pandora's box has been opened. Our leaders lied to us.. and then they ran away. The UK is now in a very dangerous position. Prey to those with a very different agenda. The fascist element circles.I fear

Bipat Jul 7th 2016 8:59 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by GeniB (Post 11996677)
Apologises to you too Bipat in chopping your post .. I just want to address this last part.

You see you have hit the nail on the head here. The UK HAD an agreement with the EU. of 40+ yrs standing. Doesn't it bother you that they have persistently tried to ignore ,evade and argue about the rules of that agreement.? Doesn't it bother you that they have played unfairly all these yrs. Trying to have the cake and eat it. The UK had ALWAYS KNOWN what the rules were. but have chosen to lie about them to the people.. They have acted as though they have been 'forced' to comply. whilst actually following their own rules i.e. the cheap labour, the black economy.The government doesn't want fair. they don't want equal.
This article in the Guardian.. was very interesting and food for thought.

http://gu.com/p/4nmck/sbl

The Constitution of the EU is far different from the EEC the UK joined 40 years ago. The Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties have changed "the rules".
As to obeying the rules the UK were more likely to obey Directives than some other members.
The point is whether the UK wants to be part of a federal state of Europe or not.

SultanOfSwing Jul 7th 2016 9:00 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 11996698)
Football notwithstanding, why is it considered such a bad thing for people to work in each other's countries?

I don't know. I don't think it is, I've been doing it for years and it's been perfectly fine.

Bipat Jul 7th 2016 9:28 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by GeniB (Post 11996726)
Well I am one of those 5.5million Brits. My life has changed considerable because of the opportunities offered by living and working in the EU. I am greatly saddened that this generation and those to come will not have that now.or at least not so easily .They will be at the back of the queue.

The idea of the EU was to bring us together, to reduce the risk of our falling prey to the sort of conflicts like WW1 and WW2..To offer us the protection and strength of the Union. to promote understanding. and of course to allow us to trade freely. That the UK ,or rather some of the leaders within the UK have deliberately set out to twist those idea's and values. because of some misguided belief that we can somehow regain an Empire? Become ' Great' That being in the EU destroyed our sovereignty ,that they didn't follow the rules of democracy..That we had no control over our borders.. All these notions have been proven false. Pandora's box has been opened. Our leaders lied to us.. and then they ran away. The UK is now in a very dangerous position. Prey to those with a very different agenda. The fascist element circles.I fear

Once again you are using the word "Empire", how could the UK possibly regain an "Empire". To those still alive who lived in such times and knowing how their parents/grandparents etc. generations suffered it is objectionable to keep speaking in such terms. It is history, those type of governments have long gone. (Apart from Tony Blair perhaps!!)

Yes it is ridiculous that Andrea Leadsom is claiming UK can be the 'greatest country in the world'.

However, why is it so terrible to realise that there is a world outside of Europe to trade with, to have equal rights for immigrants from other countries, our own Justice system to be actually 'supreme'.
That we can have close relationship with European countries (and avoid war) without being in the EU.
European people have been living and working in each others countries throughout history, why should they need to be in the EU club to do that?

Bipat Jul 7th 2016 9:37 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 11996698)
Football notwithstanding, why is it considered such a bad thing for people to work in each other's countries? The last estimates I saw show that about 5.5 million British citizens are living and working in other countries, and the foreign-born population of the UK is about 8.3 million, with 5.3 million of those being from outside the EU (Office of National Statistics 2014). So if Brits can make money in Dubai, Spain, France, the US, etc. etc. why can't Poles and everyone else work in the UK? It's pretty clear that the whole idea of national borders and what they mean in terms of employment and other economic activity has evolved, and there's no need to be afraid of that.

You are right, every one should be able to come and work and live as they always have. Brexit will just mean that there are not special rules for those from EU countries.
I don't know the rules regarding USA immigration, are there particular nationalities that have priority in being allowed to emigrate to there?

SultanOfSwing Jul 7th 2016 9:48 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 11996782)
You are right, every one should be able to come and work and live as they always have. Brexit will just mean that there are not special rules for those from EU countries.
I don't know the rules regarding USA immigration, are there particular nationalities that have priority in being allowed to emigrate to there?

Everybody keeps going on about these 'special rules', but it was a reciprocal agreement, so people from the UK were able to do the same thing elsewhere in Europe. It was not at the expense of immigration from elsewhere, that still happened and will continue unaffected.

Given the high likelihood that the UK will end up in the EEA, free movement probably isn't going to go away anyway.

DaveLovesDee Jul 7th 2016 9:53 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 11996754)
The point is whether the UK wants to be part of a federal state of Europe or not.

Since when?

Bipat Jul 7th 2016 10:03 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 11996791)
Everybody keeps going on about these 'special rules', but it was a reciprocal agreement, so people from the UK were able to do the same thing elsewhere in Europe. It was not at the expense of immigration from elsewhere, that still happened and will continue unaffected.

Given the high likelihood that the UK will end up in the EEA, free movement probably isn't going to go away anyway.

It is at some expense of immigration from elsewhere. That still happens but under strict rules.
Are you saying that there is free movement for immigrants from any country into the UK???
Yes there was a reciprocal agreement between European countries, members of the EU.
But why not have the same rules for all nationalities? Can you give a reason why not?
UK is in a different position to most other European countries in having a continued close relationship with Commonwealth countries, so has more immigration requests from those countries.

Bipat Jul 7th 2016 10:07 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 11996796)
Since when?

Was getting towards one.

Federal Europe will be 'a reality in a few years', says Jose Manuel Barroso - Telegraph

paulry Jul 7th 2016 10:09 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 11996501)
I don't know much about the Australian system, but this seems to indicate that the difference isn't what you think it is.

‘Australian-Style’ Points System Leads To Higher Immigration Than In UK


"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results - Winston Churchill"

....Brought to us by the Huffington Post :rofl:

SultanOfSwing Jul 7th 2016 10:13 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 11996809)
It is at some expense of immigration from elsewhere. That still happens but under strict rules.
Are you saying that there is free movement for immigrants from any country into the UK???
Yes there was a reciprocal agreement between European countries, members of the EU.
But why not have the same rules for all nationalities? Can you give a reason why not?
UK is in a different position to most other European countries in having a continued close relationship with Commonwealth countries, so has more immigration requests from those countries.

Free movement made it easier but that still didn't stop immigrants from other countries applying for and being admitted visas. If a non-EU immigrant was denied residence, it was because they didn't fulfill the criteria, not because someone from the EU 'took their place'.

The reason it was a reciprocal agreement between those countries was because those countries were members of the EU, that's really all there is to that. The reason those agreements don't exist with other countries is because they are not EU members and there was no reason to have such an agreement, at least for residency. Kind of pointless debating that one, really.

When it comes to immigration, the UK's relationship with the Commonwealth isn't any different to France's relationship with countries like Algeria, or the Netherlands with Senegal. Any country that used to have a ... well, I can't say that word or I'll trigger you.


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:30 pm.

Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.