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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

mfesharne Nov 8th 2016 1:21 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12098635)
And if that included paying a fee to the EU in order to salvage £20bn p/a in GDP derived from financial transactions and agreeing to abide by EU regulations in that sphere of business, that would be consistent with Brexit?

Only if we could be sure of making that much (or more) back again at the other end of the deal...... If not then no.

As for EU regulations in that sphere of business, that'd depend on what they were & how it'd affect us. But yes, it should be considered.

amideislas Nov 8th 2016 2:23 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
It's estimated that outside the single market, Britain could lose as much as 33% of its GDP. For access to that market, it currently pays less than 0.2% of its GDP in EU contributions.

If 33% return on 0.2% investment isn't sufficient, what is?

lutonlad Nov 8th 2016 2:26 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12098644)
Compromise is the order of the day.

Trouble is that too many will see any compromise as half Brexit or watered-down Brexit which they see as a bad thing.

That would only apply to hardliners.

I've got a pretty good idea of what hardline Leavers want - they tend to follow a predictable right wing agenda and want to sever all agreements with the EU.

As for Remain, for me that's not as easy to comprehend.
I see an alliance between big business and the political left which makes me (and I'm sure many others) deeply suspicious. The alliance is the result of a masterstroke from Brussels that has made FOM a condition of access to the single market.
Masterstroke is somewhat of an understatement because FOM also underpins the EU's goal of closer integration - something that DC reckons he resisted, but that doesn't prevent a future left wing Govt retracting it.

I'd like to 'smoke out' the argument. Why are the left in particular so keen on unrestricted EU immigration. Do they support the EU's Federal ambitions or is it driven by a domestic political agenda - or both?

I 'get' the business argument but I think there's a lack of clarity from others.

EMR Nov 8th 2016 2:49 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12098607)
India would not expect free movement, their own entry regulations are far stricter.
As I have said visa regulations and cost have always been more or less reciprocal between the two countries.
India has recently given visa concessions to wealthy business people from the UK, so UK has done the same!

India are complaining about the income level needed for certain work visas to the UK. (Other countries also find the recent rise in level harsh).

India is one of the biggest investors and job creators in the UK. They do 'gush' for a variety of reasons, one being the UK has one of the largest population of the Indian diaspora.

The BBC correspondent travelling with May summed up the discussion as follows.
The UK wants to discuss business , India wants to discuss immigration.
Which is odd considering how fast the growth rate is in India and that the last thing you think it would want would be to export its skills to the Uk..?
Job creation in 2015 was under 8000, in 2016 estimated to be under 2000.
UK government figures..

EMR Nov 8th 2016 2:55 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lutonlad (Post 12098689)
That would only apply to hardliners.

I've got a pretty good idea of what hardline Leavers want - they tend to follow a predictable right wing agenda and want to sever all agreements with the EU.

As for Remain, for me that's not as easy to comprehend.
I see an alliance between big business and the political left which makes me (and I'm sure many others) deeply suspicious. The alliance is the result of a masterstroke from Brussels that has made FOM a condition of access to the single market.
Masterstroke is somewhat of an understatement because FOM also underpins the EU's goal of closer integration - something that DC reckons he resisted, but that doesn't prevent a future left wing Govt retracting it.

I'd like to 'smoke out' the argument. Why are the left in particular so keen on unrestricted EU immigration. Do they support the EU's Federal ambitions or is it driven by a domestic political agenda - or both?

I 'get' the business argument but I think there's a lack of clarity from others.

To be honest I do not think the left is that positive about FOM its rather a reaction against the drift to the right we are seeing from the Tories .
For me the ideal compromise which should have been in place from day one would be quotas, limits on numbers from each EU member on those who fall into the unskilled catergory or seasonal workers.
Very difficult however to impliment.

Fredbargate Nov 8th 2016 3:05 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
The government's appeal against the High Court ruling that MPs must vote on triggering Brexit will be heard in the Supreme Court from 5 December.

Bipat Nov 8th 2016 3:40 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12098700)
The BBC correspondent travelling with May summed up the discussion as follows.
The UK wants to discuss business , India wants to discuss immigration.
Which is odd considering how fast the growth rate is in India and that the last thing you think it would want would be to export its skills to the Uk..?
Job creation in 2015 was under 8000, in 2016 estimated to be under 2000.
UK government figures..



They obviously each have their own agenda---that is negotiation!! India is concerned with student visas and sharing expertise.
Also the salary restriction--many potential trainee chefs--just one low income example--would return to India. They don't all stay!


India 2nd largest job creator in UK, 3rd largest inward investor.

Did you actually listen to the speeches---I did!
I put a link for you to read. They were rather long so may be you couldn't be bothered. In that case why choose to be your usual negative self.

India one of the largest creators of UK jobs: Theresa May in Delhi | The BRICS Post

PS You can be negative about the coat--joke--:lol:

lutonlad Nov 8th 2016 3:47 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12098704)
To be honest I do not think the left is that positive about FOM its rather a reaction against the drift to the right we are seeing from the Tories .
For me the ideal compromise which should have been in place from day one would be quotas, limits on numbers from each EU member on those who fall into the unskilled catergory or seasonal workers.
Very difficult however to impliment.

Seems to me that there's a correlation between the lefts growing enthusiasm for the EU since FOM.

Your 'ideal compromise' would have somewhat negated the EU's ambitions. But I hope you agree that it's about what moderate Leavers would be satisfied with.

EMR Nov 8th 2016 3:50 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12098731)
They obviously each have their own agenda---that is negotiation!! India is concerned with student visas and sharing expertise.
Also the salary restriction--many potential trainee chefs--just one low income example--would return to India. They don't all stay!


India 2nd largest job creator in UK, 3rd largest inward investor.

Did you actually listen to the speeches---I did!
I put a link for you to read. They were rather long so may be you couldn't be bothered. In that case why choose to be your usual negative self.

India one of the largest creators of UK jobs: Theresa May in Delhi | The BRICS Post

PS You can be negative about the coat--joke--:lol:

Uk government job creation figures speak for themselves, rather than press hyperbole.
I did read the joint statement and to be honest did not see much in it that was to the advantage of the UK unemployed or those in search of a better job in the UK.
What was brexit for if it is not about improving the lot of the unemployed those who voted brexit in the hope of a better life..

Dick Dasterdly Nov 8th 2016 4:08 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
European Commission Vice President Frans Timmermans admitted yesterday that the European project can fail.

He went on to say that the EU is failing its young citizens.

:cool:

EMR Nov 8th 2016 4:11 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12098744)
European Commission Vice President Frans Timmermans admitted yesterday that the European project can fail.

He went on to say that the EU is failing its young citizens.

:cool:

So what, brexit means brexit, do keep up Dick.

jimenato Nov 8th 2016 4:24 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12098745)
So what, brexit means brexit, do keep up Dick.

Dick is still trying to justify his position - in his own mind obviously - no-one else is interested.

sir_eccles Nov 8th 2016 5:13 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Well now everyone can be happy!

European Parliament considers plan to let individual Brits opt-in to keep their EU citizenship | The Independent


The European Parliament is to consider a plan that would allow British citizens to opt-in and keep their European Union citizenship – and its associated benefits – once the UK leaves the EU.

The proposal, which has been put before a parliamentary committee as an amendment, would grant the citizens of former member states the voluntary right to retain “associate citizenship” of the EU.

Associate citizens would be allowed to keep free movement across the EU as full citizens currently enjoy and would be allowed to vote in European Parliament elections, meaning they were still represented in Brussels.
This is actually a rather sensible compromise.

jimenato Nov 8th 2016 5:55 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by sir_eccles (Post 12098791)
Well now everyone can be happy!

European Parliament considers plan to let individual Brits opt-in to keep their EU citizenship | The Independent



This is actually a rather sensible compromise.

Yes - indeed.

Compromise is what we're talking about on this thread now and this is a good example of one. Those who would want to take this up could and those who wouldn't want to wouldn't have to.

However not everybody agrees for some reason...


Brexit campaigners in Britain reacted with anger to the idea, arguing that it would discriminate against Leave voters and that it was “an outrage”.
What's it got to do with them?:confused:

Red Eric Nov 8th 2016 6:00 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lutonlad (Post 12098689)
As for Remain, for me that's not as easy to comprehend.
I see an alliance between big business and the political left which makes me (and I'm sure many others) deeply suspicious. The alliance is the result of a masterstroke from Brussels that has made FOM a condition of access to the single market.
Masterstroke is somewhat of an understatement because FOM also underpins the EU's goal of closer integration - something that DC reckons he resisted, but that doesn't prevent a future left wing Govt retracting it.

I have mentioned this on several previous occasions but as it's come up again, I'll say it again.

There is no direct and exclusive correlation between Remain and the political left. The only people who think there is are the most right wing of the Tory Party or Kippers.

Even the most moderate of Tories these days could never be classed as left - they have drifted far from the social democratic Conservatives of times gone by, who would always previously have been classed as right of centre anyway. A substantial proportion of Remainers (including a number of posters on here) are confirmed Tories and would never dream of voting anything else.

The whole idea that Remain is more of a left wing thing is as absurd as suggesting that the EU is at all socialist - it clearly isn't and in fact panders very strongly to neoliberalism in terms of both politics and economics.

However, I do grant that extending freedom of movement of workers to other categories was designed to help with the aim of an integrated EU with a greater take-up of the opportunity to relocate easily from one member state to another.


Originally Posted by lutonlad (Post 12098689)
I'd like to 'smoke out' the argument. Why are the left in particular so keen on unrestricted EU immigration. Do they support the EU's Federal ambitions or is it driven by a domestic political agenda - or both?

I 'get' the business argument but I think there's a lack of clarity from others.

Well I think the idea is more that if the UK is a member it accepts the rules that apply to all the other members rather than picking and choosing those bits which appeal to it, rather than necessarily being a cheerleader for completely unrestricted EU immigration. There's also the matter of whether the immigration is, in fact completely unrestricted but that's another argument that's been had in various different ways on here.

However, the original appeal (of the EU in general) to the left I think arose from a notion that the EU might act as a sort of bulwark against the possibility of right wing excesses. There was, once upon a time, an element of concern about social matters and labour protection in some of the EU legislation and that was probably seen as a good thing and worth the possible drawbacks associated with unrestricted movement of labour. I shouldn't think the various UK opt-outs or the cooling off of the EU on social and labour protections has done too much to endear it to UK left wingers over recent years, though.

From my point of view nowadays, I'm actually most keen on the aspects of FOM which eg determine equality of treatment of people in any given member state or preserve pension contributions made in more than one state. The idea that immigrants should be discriminated against in the way, for example, that non-EU immigrants are in the UK, is abhorrent to me. A lot of people see that discrimination as the fault of the EU, which is a bit weird - all the EU does is say (with certain provisos) that citizens from other member states must by and large be treated the same as citizens of the state they reside in. So in a post-Brexit UK I would hope that changes are brought about to end that discrimination rather than simply extend it to also include EU citizens.


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