British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

mfesharne Nov 7th 2016 4:06 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12097929)
And again, I don't see who is actually going to overturn that decision.

But to say "without condition" is misleading, since that wasn't addressed at all in the referendum. There were always going to be "conditions" in the sense that the terms of the leave agreement are conditions. The different possibilities were discussed endlessly both on BE and elsewhere. Some people may not like some of the terms of the final agreement.

On the other hand, we will no longer be a member state - simple. In all likelihood, that will remain the same outcome.

As I've said before I don't trust politicians at all & I'll only believe Brexit has actually happened when it's complete.

RE 'without condition' I accept there will obviously have to be deals agreed but the vote itself was simply to leave not leave under any condition.

Therefore if trade agreements etc are sacrificed to gain Brexit then fine.......

Brexit must be the goal & nothing else because that's what the majority voted for.

EMR Nov 7th 2016 4:10 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12097938)
As I've said before I don't trust politicians at all & I'll only believe Brexit has actually happened when it's complete.

RE 'without condition' I accept there will obviously have to be deals agreed but the vote itself was simply to leave not leave under any condition.

Therefore if trade agreements etc are sacrificed to gain Brexit then fine.......

Brexit mtust be the goal & nothing else because that's what the majority voted for.

All brexit is is the UK leaving the EU which will happen.
You will get brexit, what you voted for.
You have no grounds for complaint.
Without condition is your invention,.

Red Eric Nov 7th 2016 4:45 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12097938)
As I've said before I don't trust politicians at all & I'll only believe Brexit has actually happened when it's complete.

RE 'without condition' I accept there will obviously have to be deals agreed but the vote itself was simply to leave not leave under any condition.

Therefore if trade agreements etc are sacrificed to gain Brexit then fine.......

Brexit must be the goal & nothing else because that's what the majority voted for.

So what would you (or any other Leaver) consider to be an adequate definition of whether Brexit has happened? That is a question that has been asked and evaded countless times but one of the more irritable and adamant Leavers on this forum posted last week that if the UK had to pay to get access to the single market post Brexit, that would be satisfactory as far as he was concerned. That appeared to me to break several of the promises made by the Leave campaigns and I wasn't sure it would be accepted by all Leavers as being acceptable. Would it be to you?

mikelincs Nov 7th 2016 5:00 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
I see the leave campaigns are under scrutiny by the CPS for knowingly misleading the public.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-misled-voters

Red Eric Nov 7th 2016 5:11 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12097856)
Even a blind man on a galloping horse could see that neither side produced much by way of solid evidence & it could be very easily argued that it was impossible for either side to produce any solid evidence either way because the whole thing was a prediction of what could/would/should/might happen in the future........ to say nothing of the fact that the propaganda from the remain side was far more radical than from the exit side.

Project fear promised us everything from a horror budget to WWIII.

This complaint is nothing at all to do with the verifiability of forecasts - it's about assertions of fact that were made during the campaign. There's a difference and it's explained very clearly in the text of the article. Expressions of opinion are excluded from the complaint - and your accusations of what was "promised" and "propaganda" above fall into the category of expression of opinion. "We send £350 million a week to the EU", on the other hand, is framed as a statement of fact, which (as was discussed on here) is demonstrably false.

Anyway, it's all in the article ;) - as is the fact that the CPS can't overturn the result of the referendum, so no need to panic.

mfesharne Nov 7th 2016 5:15 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12097984)
So what would you (or any other Leaver) consider to be an adequate definition of whether Brexit has happened? That is a question that has been asked and evaded countless times but one of the more irritable and adamant Leavers on this forum posted last week that if the UK had to pay to get access to the single market post Brexit, that would be satisfactory as far as he was concerned. That appeared to me to break several of the promises made by the Leave campaigns and I wasn't sure it would be accepted by all Leavers as being acceptable. Would it be to you?

I can only speak for myself & have answered that question on several occasions but am happy to do so again.

I want FULL Brexit where ALL laws are debated & made by the UK Govt with absolutely no interference whatsoever from any 3rd party.

Scrapping of the common fisheries policy & restoration of territorial waters etc.

An end to FOM & a visa system introduced..... that doesn't mean no movement just controlled movement.

A change of asylum rules so it can only be applied for from outside the UK.

Absolutely no entry under any circumstances whatsoever to anyone who can't be proved not to be a security risk to UK citizens.

A proper border control force that is effective.

A cessation of payments to the EU other than for normal trade & possibly genuine foreign aid.

If that means we lose access to the single market or lose bank access/passporting etc or anything else then so be it but any loss/tariff/penalty etc that we get hit for should be reciprocal.

I'd also expect some things to be at least debated fairly quickly after Brexit.

Amongst these would be:

Scrapping the current Human Rights Act & replacing it with a proper, written constitution that gives far more consideration to the law abiding citizen & far less to the criminal, especially the immigrant criminals..... & certainly the right to family life BS (for convicted immigrant criminals) must be binned.

Far easier deportation process for immigrant criminals & terrorists.

A review of the penalties for crime & terrorism including in some circumstances the return of the death penalty & full life terms being more often applied.

There's probably more in both categories but that's all I can think of for now.

Bring on the flamethrowers! :lol::rofl::lol:

EMR Nov 7th 2016 5:19 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12098019)
I can only speak for myself & have answered that question on several occasions but am happy to do so again.

I want FULL Brexit where ALL laws are debated & made by the UK Govt with absolutely no interference whatsoever from any 3rd party.

Scrapping of the common fisheries policy & restoration of territorial waters etc.

An end to FOM & a visa system introduced..... that doesn't mean no movement just controlled movement.

A change of asylum rules so it can only be applied for from outside the UK.

Absolutely no entry under any circumstances whatsoever to anyone who can't be proved not to be a security risk to UK citizens.

A proper border control force that is effective.

A cessation of payments to the EU other than for normal trade & possibly genuine foreign aid.

If that means we lose access to the single market or lose bank access/passporting etc or anything else then so be it but any loss/tariff/penalty etc that we get hit for should be reciprocal.

I'd also expect some things to be at least debated fairly quickly after Brexit.

Amongst these would be:

Scrapping the current Human Rights Act & replacing it with a proper, written constitution that gives far more consideration to the law abiding citizen & far less to the criminal, especially the immigrant criminals..... & certainly the right to family life BS (for convicted immigrant criminals) must be binned.

Far easier deportation process for immigrant criminals & terrorists.

A review of the penalties for crime & terrorism including in some circumstances the return of the death penalty & full life terms being more often applied.

There's probably more in both categories but that's all I can think of for now.

Bring on the flamethrowers! :lol::rofl::lol:


That is not Brexit, not what was on the voting paper, not what 17million others voted for.
That is just your personal agenda.
Some of it will happen some will not.
Much of it has nothing at all to do with brexit.

mfesharne Nov 7th 2016 5:20 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12098018)
This complaint is nothing at all to do with the verifiability of forecasts - it's about assertions of fact that were made during the campaign. There's a difference and it's explained very clearly in the text of the article. Expressions of opinion are excluded from the complaint - and your accusations of what was "promised" and "propaganda" above fall into the category of expression of opinion. "We send £350 million a week to the EU", on the other hand, is framed as a statement of fact, which (as was discussed on here) is demonstrably false.

Anyway, it's all in the article ;) - as is the fact that the CPS can't overturn the result of the referendum, so no need to panic.

I did read the article but as I said, It at least rings alarm bells with me.

I've heard similar before (countless examples of such spin from the Bliar Govt for example) & will only trust/believe it when it happens.

paulry Nov 7th 2016 5:33 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mikelincs (Post 12098000)
I see the leave campaigns are under scrutiny by the CPS for knowingly misleading the public.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-misled-voters

...because they received a complaint from someone :rolleyes:


submitted by an independent group, spearheaded by Prof Bob Watt, an expert in electoral law from the University of Buckingham.
That, my mooning friend is all part of the strategy by the remoaners to try and invalidate the "leave" result.

Red Eric Nov 7th 2016 5:35 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
I'm not going to quote your reply in full but there's hardly anything on your list which is related to the UK's belonging to the EU.

The rather nebulous one about all laws being made entirely by the UK and without any interference from outside completely ignores the fact that the UK is signatory to numerous treaties, conventions and agreements besides those which bind it to the EU, for example. The Human Rights Act stems from belonging to the ECHR - nothing to do with membership of the EU. The laws on asylum stem from the UK being a signatory to the UNHCR and again nothing to do with the EU, especially as the UK has an opt out from all the EU law on asylum unless it actually opts in so all the asylum regs are already completely of its own making.

You get the idea, don't you? I needn't go on.

I was really hoping for a measure by which the UK could be considered to have left the EU, rather than a list of of what other changes are required in your opinion.

mfesharne Nov 7th 2016 5:45 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12098035)
I'm not going to quote your reply in full but there's hardly anything on your list which is related to the UK's belonging to the EU.

The rather nebulous one about all laws being made entirely by the UK and without any interference from outside completely ignores the fact that the UK is signatory to numerous treaties, conventions and agreements besides those which bind it to the EU, for example. The Human Rights Act stems from belonging to the ECHR - nothing to do with membership of the EU. The laws on asylum stem from the UK being a signatory to the UNHCR and again nothing to do with the EU, especially as the UK has an opt out from all the EU law on asylum unless it actually opts in so all the asylum regs are already completely of its own making.

You get the idea, don't you? I needn't go on.

I was really hoping for a measure by which the UK could be considered to have left the EU, rather than a list of of what other changes are required in your opinion.

I disagree with you.

Not a single item in my list of changes could be made whilst inside the EU because the EU or EU links would prohibit such changes whereas an independent UK can & will do whatever it likes (subject to Parliamentary approval) & that includes EHCR (both court & convention) & UN treaties if it so wishes.

Fredbargate Nov 7th 2016 5:48 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12098019)
I can only speak for myself

Simple clear answer

But difficult for trolls to understand

Red Eric Nov 7th 2016 5:57 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
And I disagree with you.

The matter of the ECHR has been discussed time and again with you and you simply refuse to acknowledge the facts, which are that the UK could have remained in the EU and dropped out of the Convention and that it is highly unlikely to do so post Brexit because there is a significant opposition to doing so within Conservative ranks.

I don't know how you could possibly disagree with me about asylum - the UK ploughs its own furrow on that one as it has an opt out from any EU regulations. That is a fact.

I disagree that the UK can't have "a proper border control force that is effective" while it remains in the EU - does it not already have one and if not, what is preventing that?

I'll give you FOM and a possible on the fisheries but I bet there's far more to that in the end than simply saying the UK can now do as it pleases.

mfesharne Nov 7th 2016 6:06 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12098059)
And I disagree with you.

The matter of the ECHR has been discussed time and again with you and you simply refuse to acknowledge the facts, which are that the UK could have remained in the EU and dropped out of the Convention and that it is highly unlikely to do so post Brexit because there is a significant opposition to doing so within Conservative ranks.

I don't know how you could possibly disagree with me about asylum - the UK ploughs its own furrow on that one as it has an opt out from any EU regulations. That is a fact.

I disagree that the UK can't have "a proper border control force that is effective" while it remains in the EU - does it not already have one and if not, what is preventing that?

I'll give you FOM and a possible on the fisheries but I bet there's far more to that in the end than simply saying the UK can now do as it pleases.

Time will tell how it all pans out but I'll live in hope. ;)

EMR Nov 7th 2016 6:07 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Fredbargate (Post 12098051)
Simple clear answer

But difficult for trolls to understand

But it has little if anything to do with brexit.
Its a personal agenda,, thats all..
Not what was on the voting form.


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