British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   Take it Outside! (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/)
-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

GeniB Nov 4th 2016 11:24 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lutonlad (Post 12095480)
So let me get this right...

People voted to leave the EU.

Parliament, the majority being Remainers, will modify the terms to suit their pro EU agenda. That's democracy?


WHAT? Have you read and understood nothing of the previous few posts?

The High Court was DEFENDING democracy. :eek: Our Parliament is there to make sure that no little dictator pops along and decides by him/herself what will happen to the country...as Mr DC et al tried to do..

The referendum was illegal as it was presented i.e. without a final debate in parliament.. In terms that people 'may' understand from the the pirates of the Caribbean ..' It was just guidelines. on which our democratically appointed government could then rule.

DaveLovesDee Nov 4th 2016 11:32 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lutonlad (Post 12095561)
The reason that Remain activists are cock-a-hoop at the moment is that they see this as way of blocking the aspects of Brexit they don't like.
Of course they deny it by saying that they are not blocking Brexit per se. Yeah right!

Bullshit.

I voted Remain, but a majority voted Leave, and I fully accept that we are very unlikely to be an EU member by the next election. But as part of Leave's campaign, it was repeatedly claimed that the EU is undemocratic, and that the power rests in a few people not elected by the public.

Yet less than 200,000 voters (all Tory) got to vote on the choice of PM, whereas The 651 MPs (including Theresa May) were elected collectively by a far greater number.

Which of these is better able to represent the whole country's wishes, especially as every one of us voters can express our views on how we want them to vote to our MPs in the run-up to the debate and vote. You can find out who your MP is by entering your postcode here.

Red Eric Nov 4th 2016 11:33 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lutonlad (Post 12095561)
The reason that Remain activists are cock-a-hoop at the moment is that they see this as way of blocking the aspects of Brexit they don't like.
Of course they deny it by saying that they are not blocking Brexit per se. Yeah right!

You should track back through this thread and the "Leaving the EU" thread which preceded it but continued after the referendum result was announced.

You may find some posters saying they'd be happy if the result were overturned but they were few and far between. Most of us were and are simply pointing out that due process would have to be observed and that things would not necessarily turn out as anticipated by the most hardcore Brextremists. It's all written down and saved. We have had to put up with a barrage of idiotic gloating and trolling as a result but had the gloating trolls taken a moment to consider what was being said, maybe they wouldn't be so choked now? Unfortunately their powers of comprehension still appear to be absent in the face of this latest development, hence the vitriol being directed against the bringers of the court case or anybody who dares to mention it.

And I'm definitely not cock-a-hoop at the moment because Brexit means Brexit, which means upheaval and change which will not only affect me personally but which I also believe will be to the detriment of both the UK and the EU in all sorts of ways. And that, I believe, was completely unnecessary and totally avoidable.

Red Eric Nov 4th 2016 11:42 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12095578)
Yet less than 200,000 voters (all Tory) got to vote on the choice of PM...

Did they?

I thought it was down to a handful of MPs and the party members didn't even get a choice in the end. I suppose that was put down as "unanimous", though ;)

mfesharne Nov 4th 2016 11:49 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12095543)
I know for a fact that you don't believe that, or you wouldn't in all conscience have been able to post this

And - as has been pointed out to you in the past 24 hours - there is a Constitution even if it isn't written down ;)

Again; Just for accuracy, if you check my previous posts going right back to my first few posts on this thread, you'll see that I've repeatedly tried to explain there is no such thing as a single UK Constitution & rather (let's see if you remember these words) the rights of the voters & the principles of the democratic process have been established in endless legislation some of which dates back to the time of the Magna Carta & some would argue considerably further.

I'm not digging you out, I'm just trying to point out there is no such thing as a single document that sets down a Constitution such as the Yanks have.

But hey, if you think I am digging you out or if you think I'm wrong, please do feel free to post a link to a single UK Constitution......... A bit like the US one that begins with "We the People" etc

mikelincs Nov 4th 2016 11:50 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12095584)
Did they?

I thought it was down to a handful of MPs and the party members didn't even get a choice in the end. I suppose that was put down as "unanimous", though ;)

There was no election of the PM by the party, all the candidates, except for Teresa May, dropped out leaving her as 'elected' because none of the others would take the responsibility of negotiating Brexit even though they were leaders of the 'leave' group. Rats deserting a sinking ship comes to mind.

jimenato Nov 4th 2016 11:54 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lutonlad (Post 12095504)
Only one really. To block the triggering of A50 unless the Govt endorses the Free Movement of People in future negotiations.

I really don't know where you picked up this notion that remainers' motivation is to perpetuate freedom of movement.

As far as I am aware it is incidental to their main motivation which is free trade (amongst others).

Personally I would be a bit sad that we had gone down that route and it might be a mild inconvenience to me but that's it. TBH if we could secure membership of the single market and have restriction on EU immigration that would be more-or-less the perfect solution - I suspect most people on both sides would be satisfied.

Maybe I'm wrong - are any other remainers on here mainly motivated by perpetuation of freedom of movement?

Lion in Winter Nov 4th 2016 11:56 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12095593)
Again; Just for accuracy, if you check my previous posts going right back to my first few posts on this thread, you'll see that I've repeatedly tried to explain there is no such thing as a single UK Constitution & rather (let's see if you remember these words) the rights of the voters & the principles of the democratic process have been established in endless legislation some of which dates back to the time of the Magna Carta & some would argue considerably further.

I'm not digging you out, I'm just trying to point out there is no such thing as a single document that sets down a Constitution such as the Yanks have.

But hey, if you think I am digging you out or if you think I'm wrong, please do feel free to post a link to a single UK Constitution......... A bit like the US one that begins with "We the People" etc

If your only point is that our constitution isn't written down on one piece of paper then, without being rude, it isn't a very interesting point.

The British constitution has done a pretty good job of protecting internal peace, stability and rule of law for a very long time.

Lion in Winter Nov 4th 2016 11:58 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12095579)
You should track back through this thread and the "Leaving the EU" thread which preceded it but continued after the referendum result was announced.

You may find some posters saying they'd be happy if the result were overturned but they were few and far between. Most of us were and are simply pointing out that due process would have to be observed and that things would not necessarily turn out as anticipated by the most hardcore Brextremists. It's all written down and saved. We have had to put up with a barrage of idiotic gloating and trolling as a result but had the gloating trolls taken a moment to consider what was being said, maybe they wouldn't be so choked now? Unfortunately their powers of comprehension still appear to be absent in the face of this latest development, hence the vitriol being directed against the bringers of the court case or anybody who dares to mention it.

And I'm definitely not cock-a-hoop at the moment because Brexit means Brexit, which means upheaval and change which will not only affect me personally but which I also believe will be to the detriment of both the UK and the EU in all sorts of ways. And that, I believe, was completely unnecessary and totally avoidable.

Exactly.

Red Eric Nov 4th 2016 12:02 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12095596)
Maybe I'm wrong - are any other remainers on here mainly motivated by perpetuation of freedom of movement?

Not necessarily by unrestricted freedom of movement itself (which is a bit of a myth anyway ;) but that's another matter) but by the principles underpinning it, to a degree and in conjunction with a lot of other things (but not mainly) yes. By which I mean, for example, the principle that by and large immigrants are treated equally to native citizens and that eg years of social security contributions or pension entitlements accrued in one member state shouldn't be "lost" on moving to another. That kind of thing, which one would have hoped would just be naturally legislated for but which it has taken the EU to pull together as far as its member states are concerned.

But there's a lot else besides on the plus sides of the EU and a lot of minuses for me as well.

jimenato Nov 4th 2016 12:09 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12095538)
Just for the sake of accuracy there is no such thing as the Constitution of the UK.
...


Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12095593)
Again; Just for accuracy, if you check my previous posts going right back to my first few posts on this thread, you'll see that I've repeatedly tried to explain there is no such thing as a single UK Constitution & rather (let's see if you remember these words) the rights of the voters & the principles of the democratic process have been established in endless legislation some of which dates back to the time of the Magna Carta & some would argue considerably further.

I'm not digging you out, I'm just trying to point out there is no such thing as a single document that sets down a Constitution such as the Yanks have.

But hey, if you think I am digging you out or if you think I'm wrong, please do feel free to post a link to a single UK Constitution......... A bit like the US one that begins with "We the People" etc

Anyone know what informal fallacy has been perpetrated here?

Spoiler:

Assanah Nov 4th 2016 12:13 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12095596)

Personally I would be a bit sad that we had gone down that route and it might be a mild inconvenience to me but that's it. TBH if we could secure membership of the single market and have restriction on EU immigration that would be more-or-less the perfect solution - I suspect most people on both sides would be satisfied.

You can't be a member of the single market and restrict freedom of movement. That is a fact.

And what kind of EU would that be with freedom for capital and goods but not people? I like the opportunity that the EU offers me as a simple European worker. I like to have the possibility to move to France, to take a job in Ireland and to retire in Croatia. If the British don't want that all fine by me. But then the UK can't be a member of the single market. Please don't destroy that. Find another way. Join the customs union or so. Then you goods are free to travel to the EU but you won't. Leave the single market untouched by your ideas. Thank you.

mfesharne Nov 4th 2016 12:20 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12095601)
If your only point is that our constitution isn't written down on one piece of paper then, without being rude, it isn't a very interesting point.

The British constitution has done a pretty good job of protecting internal peace, stability and rule of law for a very long time.

Perhaps not very interesting to many which is why I started my post with the words "Just for accuracy" but the fact there is no set Constitution may well become considerably more interesting to many when Brexit is finally achieved because I have no doubt that one will be introduced to replace the current & much abused 'Human Rights Act'

DaveLovesDee Nov 4th 2016 12:26 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mikelincs (Post 12095594)
There was no election of the PM by the party, all the candidates, except for Teresa May, dropped out leaving her as 'elected' because none of the others would take the responsibility of negotiating Brexit even though they were leaders of the 'leave' group. Rats deserting a sinking ship comes to mind.

Thanks Mike. I'd forgot about that.

EMR Nov 4th 2016 12:29 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12095619)
Perhaps not very interesting to many which is why I started my post with the words "Just for accuracy" but the fact there is no set Constitution may well become considerably more interesting to many when Brexit is finally achieved because I have no doubt that one will be introduced to replace the current & much abused 'Human Rights Act'

We will not have a written constitution but as we have done since records were kept adapt our laws to suit changing events and atitudes.
Given your history it us no suprise you are not a fan of the Human Rights act.
Human rights were denied to the majority of the population in your country of choice.
We are in a different league to those under who you happily lived and worked.


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