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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

EMR Jul 1st 2016 7:00 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Another brexit fallacy hits the dust, now Gove confirms that the famous 350million is actually only 100million.
Just how many times has that already been spent.
Carswell on question time last night complained that he been set up when questioners pointed out ghat he to had mysteriously lost 250million week claimed savings as a result of brexit.
Now you see it, now after the vote its gone.

BillericayDicky Jul 1st 2016 7:04 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 11990935)
While we wait for the definition, I wonder if an election will be called after the Tories have sorted out their new leader and before any triggering of article 50. The large majority of the Commons favours remain and a vote of no confidence in tbe government isn't unthinkable - but who would lead the rebellion? And then what?

What a mess.

Well, the 1972 ECA would have to be overturned by parliament before a pm can announce A50. Personally, I don't fancy any of the potential tory leaders, there is a good article in the Graun with a roundup of the usual suspects:

http://gu.com/p/4n9tn?CMP=Share_Andr...y_to_clipboard

May seems to be about the best of the lot, but I don't approve of her record on human rights. She was also a great proponent of a national biometric database and the mandatory carrying of ID cards, so there is much to dislike.

In the north, I can see UKIP taking many traditional Labour seats, which means an overall move to the right for the whole country for perhaps an entire generation.

I think those of us thinking of returning have much to be concerned about. I won't stand idly by and watch the far right try to take my country, I fought them in the 70s and I would fight them again. I looks as though we are in for a time of it though, if Brexit goes ahead or if parliament overturns that absurd referendum. My biggest frustration is that fighting the far right is something we must constantly be aware of. I honestly thought we had learned more since the 1970s...

Red Eric Jul 2nd 2016 6:48 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Interesting read from Kazuo Ishiguro in the FT here https://next.ft.com/content/7877a0a6...bd80a#comments

EMR Jul 2nd 2016 8:45 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 11991535)
Interesting read from Kazuo Ishiguro in the FT here https://next.ft.com/content/7877a0a6...bd80a#comments

I think it reflects the views of most leavers.
Let the process take its time, with the unity and prosperity of the UK being its priorities.
Extreme leavers and the right must not be allowed to capitalise on the focus on immigration that they used to win the referendum.

Lion in Winter Jul 2nd 2016 2:28 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 11991535)
Interesting read from Kazuo Ishiguro in the FT here https://next.ft.com/content/7877a0a6...bd80a#comments

That is very well written and quite moving in some ways . And his proposal for the kind of second referendum we should have does make sense in many ways and it would be an opportunity for arguments to be aired that were never aired during the Farage-driven referendum debate. I have to say that it would be a high stakes game though.

JACHA Jul 2nd 2016 2:48 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Nice to see some emotional but calm thoughts in the article.

Bipat Jul 2nd 2016 3:21 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by JACHA (Post 11991726)
Nice to see some emotional but calm thoughts in the article.

I am not sure its possible to be calm and emotional at the same time?

I think this article just repeats the views of many Remain people --it is just better written!
"Referendum" as opposed to Parliamentary democracy?
"stupid referendum"? -- Is a referendum not democratic? Should it be repeated until those who happen to be in power in the country get the result they want.
A general election without proportional representation could be said to produce a non democratic Parliament.

Of course there was a lot of 'hype' on both sides of the debate. Farage was not part of the official Brexit campaign, certainly he sells newspapers and those in the country who are racist/xenophobic latched on to his ranting.

Mr Ishiguro agrees that these BNP/National Front type people are a minority. So why assume those people were the majority of the Brexit voters? (Some on the remain side stated that they preferred 'white' immigrants.!!)

Finally he asks "is the UK too racist for the modern globalised world"? This is somewhat ridiculous as the majority of the globalised world is not in the EU and is not European.

GeniB Jul 2nd 2016 9:02 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 11991746)
I am not sure its possible to be calm and emotional at the same time?

I think this article just repeats the views of many Remain people --it is just better written!
"Referendum" as opposed to Parliamentary democracy?
"stupid referendum"? -- Is a referendum not democratic? Should it be repeated until those who happen to be in power in the country get the result they want.
A general election without proportional representation could be said to produce a non democratic Parliament.

Of course there was a lot of 'hype' on both sides of the debate. Farage was not part of the official Brexit campaign, certainly he sells newspapers and those in the country who are racist/xenophobic latched on to his ranting.

Mr Ishiguro agrees that these BNP/National Front type people are a minority. So why assume those people were the majority of the Brexit voters? (Some on the remain side stated that they preferred 'white' immigrants.!!)

Finally he asks "is the UK too racist for the modern globalised world"? This is somewhat ridiculous as the majority of the globalised world is not in the EU and is not European.


It doesn't matter how we try to 'cut it' This unfortunate referendum was deeply flawed from the outset. It was about race and religion in the end .Not only ill conceived but forced on a people who were not properly informed or prepared for it.. Not only that but most of the promises and facts declared by the government have mysteriously disappeared in the post Brexit mist. The leavers AND the remainers have been royally duped
..
There has to be a moment however when we move on from' sour grapes' and fully understand the above. It wasn't what it seemed for any of us. Our worthy leaders have since cut and run,tail between legs.That should be a big clue . We are left with .--what? A private arrangement to appoint a PM we will not have voted for...There goes another of the cherished battle cries. 'Democratically Appointed. '
Instead of going over old ground, we should be clamouring for full disclosure.. what exactly we are in for.What are the true facts if Cameron can be berated in the Eu parliament for lying to us?.Lets start demanding those , instead of the 'politic' sound bites we have been fed.

This horrible rift in our country,even in our families , has to be healed and healed fast. Before the vile and loathsome see the opportunity to take over.If it means another referendum on the real weightier and worthier subjects than hatred of immigrants and muslims.. then our country is worth it. worth the wait .. to get it right. whichever way it falls

Wol Jul 2nd 2016 10:02 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
》 It was about race and religion in the end 《 Nonsense. Yes, there were probably some for whom that is so but to try and pick one group and "blame" it is illogical.


》Not only ill conceived but forced on a people who were not properly informed or prepared for it.《 "Forced"? And if people were not "properly informed or prepared for it" after half a century of seeing the EU's agenda then, sorry, they shouldn't moan.

》The leavers AND the remainers have been royally duped 《 Shows that people should actually do just a teeny weeny bit of research before voting on such an important thing.

》It wasn't what it seemed for any of us. 《 Perhaps not for you, but probably it was for most of the Brexiter voters.

》A private arrangement to appoint a PM we will not have voted for...There goes another of the cherished battle cries. 'Democratically Appointed. 《 Actually, no-one votes for a PM in our system, any time. The leader of a party is elected by the party and if that party has a majority the Queen invites him to form a government and thus be the PM.

》This horrible rift in our country,even in our families , has to be healed and healed fast. Before the vile and loathsome see the opportunity to take over.If it means another referendum on the real weightier and worthier subjects than hatred of immigrants and muslims.. then our country is worth it. worth the wait .. to get it right. whichever way it falls 《 So most Brexiters are "vile and loathsome"?

Get over it, please. Over a million more voted "out" than "in", however one plays around with conjectures. If that doesn't mean anything to those in denial, nothing will.

I fully expected the vote to go the other way, and would have mourned the final loss of national sovereignty and accountability but accepted it. About time some people, many of whom evidently couldn't be bothered to turn out, shut up.

Dick Dasterdly Jul 2nd 2016 10:18 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Around 20 banks, unfazed by Brexit, to invest 500 million pounds in Britain - PwC By Reuters

Dick Dasterdly Jul 2nd 2016 10:26 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Juncker admits Europeans have lost faith in the EU – EurActiv.com

"European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker today admitted that citizens had lost faith in the EU, during a speech at the Council of Europe in Strasbourg.

Juncker also said that the Commission had regulated too much and interfered too much in people’s lives in the past.

“The European project has lost parts of its attractiveness,” Juncker said at the Council’s Parliamentary Assembly.

“One of the reasons why EU citizens are stepping away from the European project is due to the fact that we are interfering in too many domains of their private lives and in too many domains where member states are better placed to take action.”

paulry Jul 2nd 2016 11:42 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 11991990)
Juncker admits Europeans have lost faith in the EU – EurActiv.com

"European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker today admitted that citizens had lost faith in the EU, during a speech at the Council of Europe in Strasbourg.

Juncker also said that the Commission had regulated too much and interfered too much in people’s lives in the past.

“The European project has lost parts of its attractiveness,” Juncker said at the Council’s Parliamentary Assembly.

“One of the reasons why EU citizens are stepping away from the European project is due to the fact that we are interfering in too many domains of their private lives and in too many domains where member states are better placed to take action.”

But he's still in cloud cuckoo land because he's missing the fact that people value too much their nation state and rights of self determination and control. They don't want to hand all that over to another entity. They just want easy trade - which isn't what the EU is really about.


JACHA Jul 2nd 2016 11:54 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
I didn't explain myself very well. I meant the article didn't have any viciousness about why people voted the way they did. Would people accept a second referendum do you think. It would be good if it was as simple as having a two lists. One with truthful issues of this is what will be lost and the other what will be gained. But I could be living in a fantasy land where politicians (applies worldwide) tell the electorate the truth.

Dick Dasterdly Jul 3rd 2016 12:34 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 11992028)
But he's still in cloud cuckoo land because he's missing the fact that people value too much their nation state and rights of self determination and control. They don't want to hand all that over to another entity. They just want easy trade - which isn't what the EU is really about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKAESL0wb7o

Very true.

It was interesting how after the referendum,Junckers was so peeved he immediately went into attack and insult mode.

Until Merkel had a quiet word in his ear to the effect that,...
....such an attitude is no longer in our best interests my dear,

My word, what a climb down !

750,000 German workers are relying on a smooth transition and continuation of the same trade with the UK or they could soon find themselves up shit creek without a paddle. :cool:

Lion in Winter Jul 3rd 2016 12:54 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by JACHA (Post 11992038)
I didn't explain myself very well. I meant the article didn't have any viciousness about why people voted the way they did. Would people accept a second referendum do you think. It would be good if it was as simple as having a two lists. One with truthful issues of this is what will be lost and the other what will be gained. But I could be living in a fantasy land where politicians (applies worldwide) tell the electorate the truth.

Well we do have a constitution, luckily for us, and that can't be changed just by shouting slogans at the unwary until they believe them.

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016...pensable-role/

It remains to be seen how all this plays out.


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