British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   Take it Outside! (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/)
-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

amideislas Oct 19th 2016 8:35 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
I'm beginning to agree with you.

Britain should just get the hell out, shut its borders and sit paranoid, fearing foreigners and everything else the daily mail and express tell Britons they should fear. Lock your doors and hide in the dark from nonexistent threats.

The rest of the world will move on without the isolationist island off the coast somewhere. Shame, but that's what England apparently wants. So, have it.

SultanOfSwing Oct 19th 2016 8:36 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12080887)
Mandelson is a contemptuous political worm and Miliband and Clegg are little better. If they are forming a group to steer Brexit in any shape or form of their preferring then you can be sure it is to defy the democratic decision. :thumbdown:

Incorrect. The referendum result was not a democratic decision, it was an advisory referendum for the electorate to demonstrate to Parliament what they believe they should do. It is, and always will be up to Parliament to make the final decision.

If Parliament wanted to leave the EU, they could have invoked Article 50 at any time without bothering to hold a referendum. It doesn't matter what Cameron did or didn't say, this is a matter of the Constitution of the United Kingdom, which deals with Parliamentary Sovereignty.

Democracy is what elects the Members of Parliament who enact the laws, but Parliament will have the final decision on what is done in any and all cases and this is why referenda that extend to the entire UK are very rare.

TGA Oct 19th 2016 8:44 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
yawn....

paulry Oct 19th 2016 9:02 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
An interesting article in the telegraph that claims that we're not yet home and dry with our wish for independence from the EU. Another phase of this deeply divisive fight for Britain's freedom has begun.

Why it's time for a new campaign for Brexit

paulry Oct 19th 2016 9:03 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by TGA (Post 12080897)
yawn....

:goodpost:

+1

TGA Oct 19th 2016 9:06 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12080910)
An interesting article in the telegraph that claims that we're not yet home and dry with our wish for independence from the EU. Another phase of this deeply divisive fight for Britain's freedom has begun.

Why it's time for a new campaign for Brexit

the remoaners remind me a bit of the monty python black knight

paulry Oct 19th 2016 9:13 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by TGA (Post 12080914)
the remoaners remind me a bit of the monty python black knight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

:rofl: So true

amideislas Oct 19th 2016 9:15 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Well, yeah. I've used the same analogy before.
Brexiters, despite being hacked to shreds, claim victory.

This is new?

jimenato Oct 19th 2016 9:29 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12080910)
An interesting article in the telegraph that claims that we're not yet home and dry with our wish for independence from the EU. Another phase of this deeply divisive fight for Britain's freedom has begun.

Why it's time for a new campaign for Brexit

Very interesting indeed.

:goodpost:

DaveLovesDee Oct 19th 2016 9:29 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12080842)
That is where you are wrong.

Based on what evidence?


Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12080846)
People in your link said one thing, Cameron said another. Whatever the source people took their advice from, they voted for an in or an out. The ballot paper was plain enough to them.

People believed what they wanted to, but weren't helped by claims that the experts were fear-mongering, when in fact it was politicians like Cameron and Farage especially twisted the facts to suit their agendas.

The difference is that I listened to both the people in my link and to Cameron, and then did my own researc into the claims of both. And I found Cameron to be less credible than those in the link.

I voted Remain because I did my research, not because of anything Cameron said.


Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12080887)
Mandelson is a contemptuous political worm and Miliband and Clegg are little better. If they are forming a group to steer Brexit in any shape or form of their preferring then you can be sure it is to defy the democratic decision. :thumbdown:

If they're steering Brexit in a direction that is still Brexit, how is that defying anything. Let alone a democratic decision by Parliament which hasn't happened yet? And a referendum result isn't a democratic decision, it's an expression of choice.


Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12080556)

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12080888)
Don't be an idiot all of your life. The evidence is out there if you care to look - which somehow I doubt that you do;)

Nope - I said (perfectly clearly, I thought) that the article to which you posted a link presented no such evidence. I expressed surprise at you for posting something so unconvincing. However, if you have difficulty understanding that then perhaps I misjudged you and you do actually think that posting links to such material is worthwhile. I'll just return to refraining from reading them in future though - thanks for reminding me I'm missing nothing.

Eric isn't disputing that the evidence may be out there, he's telling you that there's no evidence in the link you posted to support the claim in the link's headline.

mfesharne Oct 19th 2016 9:32 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12080892)
Incorrect. The referendum result was not a democratic decision, it was an advisory referendum for the electorate to demonstrate to Parliament what they believe they should do. It is, and always will be up to Parliament to make the final decision.

If Parliament wanted to leave the EU, they could have invoked Article 50 at any time without bothering to hold a referendum. It doesn't matter what Cameron did or didn't say, this is a matter of the Constitution of the United Kingdom, which deals with Parliamentary Sovereignty.

Democracy is what elects the Members of Parliament who enact the laws, but Parliament will have the final decision on what is done in any and all cases and this is why referenda that extend to the entire UK are very rare.

You're confusing the British democratic process with British Parliamentary Democratic process...... both are connected but neither are identical.

But we've discussed this before. ;)

The question of whether the Brexit itself should be further debated is....... debatable.

As I understand it, the Brexit itself is irrefutable but the conditions might possibly be.

Although I have no idea what would happen if any condition were refused by Parliament & then by the EU because Brexit would have to be obeyed anyway...... in other words, that dispute would surely have to then mean the hardest of hard Brexits?

SultanOfSwing Oct 19th 2016 9:40 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12080936)
You're confusing the British democratic process with British Parliamentary Democratic process...... both are connected but neither are identical.

But we've discussed this before. ;)

We have discussed it before but it is my understanding that any referendum held in the UK is advisory only and this is why there have only been three UK-wide referenda in history. Parliament will then vote on whether to take the advice presented to them.

It was in the wording on the ballot: "Should the UK ...?", not "The UK will ... do you agree?".


Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12080936)
The question of whether the Brexit itself should be further debated is....... debatable.

As I understand it, the Brexit itself is irrefutable but the conditions might possibly be.

Although I have no idea what would happen if any condition were refused by Parliament & then by the EU because Brexit would have to be obeyed anyway......

If indeed Parliament does decide to go ahead with the decision to leave, the nature and conditions of what Brexit is and will entail should absolutely be discussed further. The UK wants to make sure it exits the EU with as beneficial a set of terms as it can, after all.


Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12080936)
... the hardest of hard Brexits?

Coming soon to Brazzers ...

Red Eric Oct 19th 2016 9:47 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12080932)
Eric isn't disputing that the evidence may be out there, he's telling you that there's no evidence in the link you posted to support the claim in the link's headline.

Thankyou DLD. I thought it was plain and simple enough.

There appears to be a growing contingent of posters on here who post links to something which either has a lurid headline or for which they make an extravagent claim which is not borne out in the link provided. When it's pointed out there is a guffaw and some idiotic response along with a suggestion to search the rest of the internet for evidence / do your own research / don't be lazy or some such crap. Frankly it's as childish as the repeat name-calling.

If you want to be taken seriously, make your points properly and if you're posting "evidence", make it relevant instead of dumping some crap or other and saying "look elsewhere" when it's challenged.

mfesharne Oct 19th 2016 9:49 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Time will tell but I really can't see Parliament challenging the Brexit decision itself because if it did, I think it'd result in a UKIP Govt at best & damn near civil war at worst.

Red Eric Oct 19th 2016 9:53 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12080770)
Let me get my head round this one. We have a referendum and we vote one way.

Some elitists and political losers do not like it and call in lawyers to get around the result of the referendum and want a debate in Parliament and Article 50 is voted down.

A majority of those voting, seventeen million people, voted one way but the elite, the minority running the country for their own means, do not like it and work to overturn it. And you say that is called democracy? That is how we do things in the UK? By overturning the vote of the people in the courts?

If this is what we have come to then, yes, that is what worries me.

There was a time when, if I'd read that post from you, I'd have sworn that it was fairly firmly tongue-in-cheek (at least in part). Reading it today I'm absolutely convinced it's not. One of those occasions when I'd be very happy to be told I'm wrong because it makes me feel extremely uneasy :(


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