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Post EU Referendum

Post EU Referendum

Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:02 pm
  #38896  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Maybe the way to keep the UK's Ultra-Right happy next year is to electronically tag all immigrants? Actually they could join the existing domestically tagged,and even vastly expand G4S's profits - and with colours -
Red = Immigrant
Blue = Welfare scrounger / unmarried mother
Yellow = Minimum wage earner
Pink = Gay person
Black = Prole / poor person
Orange = Returned ex-pat
There's huge flexibility in the new era of tags you know. They can be set to allow part-time access via selected routes to work venues; exclusion from middle class shopping malls & residential areas; curfew timings in defined social-housing zones;
Will that keep you lot happy???
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:04 pm
  #38897  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
To take Portugal as an example (both a member of the EU and Schengen) - EU citizens arriving have an automatic 90-day "visa". To deal financially with any government department and/or to make major purchases or take up paid work you will require a finance number - you do NOT have to be a resident to get one, but this is a level of control. The cash economy has been constrained by making any cash payment over €3k illegal again this works against a "black economy" as exits in the UK.

If you remain beyond 90 days, you must register as a resident with the council (camara) closest to you, they will take details and may require proof of savings/income so that you can prove you will not be a burden on the state. The Camara may grant you residency for 5 years, but if it is refused you must leave the country. After 5 years you have to apply again for residency to the immigration service..... note, this isn't citizenship, just residency as a foreign national.

All of this is legal under EU rules.
Can you imagine the tears in the Guardian if that sort of "hostile environment" was applied to EU citizens, they has an apoplexy when it was applied to illegal immigrants.

Is it actually enforced in Portugal?

In wonder why the UK government cannot even remove EU rough sleepers dossing on the streets of London back to their home countries?

My experience in Spain is that the cash/black economy is far more prevalent than in the UK, I always assumed that Portugal was similar.
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:06 pm
  #38898  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by 007Steve View Post
Maybe the way to keep the UK's Ultra-Right happy next year is to electronically tag all immigrants? Actually they could join the existing domestically tagged,and even vastly expand G4S's profits - and with colours -
Red = Immigrant
Blue = Welfare scrounger / unmarried mother
Yellow = Minimum wage earner
Pink = Gay person
Black = Prole / poor person
Orange = Returned ex-pat
There's huge flexibility in the new era of tags you know. They can be set to allow part-time access via selected routes to work venues; exclusion from middle class shopping malls & residential areas; curfew timings in defined social-housing zones;
Will that keep you lot happy???
Now you're talking some sense!
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:10 pm
  #38899  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Is there any particular reason why it is offensive to use the word swarm when discussing mass immigration?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic.../english/swarm
A large group of people all moving together.
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:12 pm
  #38900  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
In their desperate desire to be social justice warriors and "protect" immigrants, all basic economic logic must be thrown out the window. Yet these people also get a vote - shocking really, especially as the remainers were meant to be so much more educated.
Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I don't think anybody is, particularly. Believing that all residents of a country should have the same obligations and rights (with certain provisos) once they have been admitted is hardly being a social justice warrior. Nor is countering some of the more lurid ideas and implications or challenging some of the deliberately antagonistic / tabloid language usually used for the sole purpose of dehumanising and demonising immigrants. But you're only trolling when you do that, just as you are above
Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Where have I suggested the contrary?
We are talking about reducing future immigrants, not removing existing ones.
There has been no demonising language.
I can't imagine where you got it from that I was referring to the removal of anybody. As far as I'm aware, that's a fantasy of a tiny minority of the loopiest of the loopy, which is presumably why we have only one proponent of it that I can recall on this forum, despite the fact that it has far more than a representative ratio of loons.

My post was merely in the context of your intentionally inflammatory remark about posters wanting to be SJWs and "protect" immigrants. What I read mainly on this forum from those who are not of the immigration-is-the-result-of-all-evil persuasion with regard to "protection" is simply that once in the UK immigrants from anywhere should by and large be treated as any other resident of the country. As it is, EU citizens have that protection guaranteed.

Most of us aren't posting that we want to see as many immigrants crammed in as possible or saying we should let people in because they're needy, we feel sorry for them or whatever. It's simply not objecting in the main to the current bases on which they're admitted or allowed to remain under our existing agreements and obligations combined with our own immigration policy.

Your turn now - in what way is that showing a desperate desire to be a SJW and "protect" immigrants?
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:17 pm
  #38901  
 
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
Is there any particular reason why it is offensive to use the word swarm when discussing mass immigration?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic.../english/swarm
Excellent point. I think I will start referring to swarms of alt-right, jingoistic, uninformed bigots infesting our political discourse.
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:19 pm
  #38902  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
To take Portugal as an example (both a member of the EU and Schengen) - EU citizens arriving have an automatic 90-day "visa". To deal financially with any government department and/or to make major purchases or take up paid work you will require a finance number - you do NOT have to be a resident to get one, but this is a level of control. The cash economy has been constrained by making any cash payment over €3k illegal again this works against a "black economy" as exits in the UK.

If you remain beyond 90 days, you must register as a resident with the council (camara) closest to you, they will take details and may require proof of savings/income so that you can prove you will not be a burden on the state. The Camara may grant you residency for 5 years, but if it is refused you must leave the country. After 5 years you have to apply again for residency to the immigration service..... note, this isn't citizenship, just residency as a foreign national.

All of this is legal under EU rules.
That seems reasonable, thanks for sharing it.

I think if over the years the government had been smarter about the way it "integrated" with the EU it's likely the vote outcome would have been Remain.
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:23 pm
  #38903  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Can you imagine the tears in the Guardian if that sort of "hostile environment" was applied to EU citizens, they has an apoplexy when it was applied to illegal immigrants.


When was anything ever applied to illegal immigrants, other than procedures for removal? And are you talking about the perfectly legal immigrants of the Windrush debacle, who should never have been deported or ordered to leave?

Bloody Guardian, making a fuss about nothing, eh?
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:27 pm
  #38904  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Can you imagine the tears in the Guardian if that sort of "hostile environment" was applied to EU citizens, they has an apoplexy when it was applied to illegal immigrants.
well, if that were the case, it's obviously a UK problem isn't it?
Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Is it actually enforced in Portugal?
It certainly is enforced in Spain. And Germany (two places I'm intimately familiar with).

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
In wonder why the UK government cannot even remove EU rough sleepers dossing on the streets of London back to their home countries?
It's not "cannot". It's "does not". There's a difference.

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
My experience in Spain is that the cash/black economy is far more prevalent than in the UK, I always assumed that Portugal was similar.
It was 20 Years ago. You don't get away with that very easily anymore. Just like in the UK, there's still some of it, but nothing like it used to be. No doubt you'd be screaming "dictatorship" had your [cash, untaxed] business been subjected to unfair "rules" like that.

Come to think of it, here's a good example of that kind of thing:

Here in Mallorca, it's always been illegal to let properties for tourists without a licence. To get a licence, your property must meet basic standards of safety, cleanliness, facilities (e.g., one bath for every 3 guests), *and* the property must meet building codes and you have to pay taxes on the income. Until about 2 years ago, it was largely unenforced. A lot of Brits bought cheap apartments and figured they could let them to tourists most of the year, and pay the mortgage with the proceeds. It was always illegal, but nobody ever thought it would be enforced. And they took the money, never paid a cent in tax. Good deal.

Well, two years ago, the government sent out a clear message to the press that this would no longer be tolerated. And as of last year, they started seriously enforcing it with huge fines and shutting them down, with big bills for back taxes. And guess who's screaming the loudest about this? Just read on TripAdvisor. British apartment owners are freaking out. How are they going to pay the mortgage now? Those stupid meany Spaniards!

So, lots of apartments on the market in the handful of British enclaves. Germans and Dutch are snapping them up.

Last edited by amideislas; Aug 17th 2018 at 3:02 pm.
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:29 pm
  #38905  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
I used it ironically.
Is that another lie or just that you can't make your mind up how you used it?
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:35 pm
  #38906  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
Is there any particular reason why it is offensive to use the word swarm when discussing mass immigration?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic.../english/swarm
I don't think the point is one of offence, just that it's an example of a certain rhetoric associated with a certain view, usually a discriminatory or negative one.
In any case, using that definition, there are two points. Is it a large group relative to the whole and are they moving together?
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:53 pm
  #38907  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Is it actually enforced in Portugal?
Not really, no.

In theory, EU citizens can be fined for not registering but not removed from the country for that alone but in practice, I've never heard of such a thing either in the news or on the forums. However, what used to be a fairly lax set of procedures has been tightened up a bit now, so you can't, for example, register in the health service without a resident registration certificate, which was possible years ago. And you need a tax number before you get the registration certificate. But there are still (allegedly) numerous unregistered Brits (and therefore presumably other EU citizens) residing full-time here. Nobody goes round knocking on doors or stopping you in the street demanding to see your papers for immigration purposes.
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:53 pm
  #38908  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by 007Steve View Post
Yes, and imo, a valid challenge and a proper one too GeniB.
A few weeks ago (in this thread somewhere???) I posted that as both sides had broken UK electoral law voters couldn't have made an untainted choice, so I didn't believe it was now legal to proceed on that criminal illegality.
Now we shall see.
(And before anyone says it - I'm NOT trying to be a smart-arse here)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apologies for the bad-form in Quoting myself, but here's today's update from the Guardian (I tried to find a Right-Wing paper report but couldn't)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-weeks-respond
Erm..... now you can carry on with the house-prices ding-dong
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:55 pm
  #38909  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I can't imagine where you got it from that I was referring to the removal of anybody. As far as I'm aware, that's a fantasy of a tiny minority of the loopiest of the loopy, which is presumably why we have only one proponent of it that I can recall on this forum, despite the fact that it has far more than a representative ratio of loons.

My post was merely in the context of your intentionally inflammatory remark about posters wanting to be SJWs and "protect" immigrants. What I read mainly on this forum from those who are not of the immigration-is-the-result-of-all-evil persuasion with regard to "protection" is simply that once in the UK immigrants from anywhere should by and large be treated as any other resident of the country. As it is, EU citizens have that protection guaranteed.

Most of us aren't posting that we want to see as many immigrants crammed in as possible or saying we should let people in because they're needy, we feel sorry for them or whatever. It's simply not objecting in the main to the current bases on which they're admitted or allowed to remain under our existing agreements and obligations combined with our own immigration policy.

Your turn now - in what way is that showing a desperate desire to be a SJW and "protect" immigrants?
You only have to look back on this thread - mentioning persistent high net immigration and also ensuring the rights of existing migrants brings out accusations of being a Nazi (EMR) and calls of isolationism and apartheid (007Steve) or the usual bitter anti-English bigotry (Ami). You are clearly correct about the loons, but they're remainiac ones.
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Old Aug 17th 2018, 2:56 pm
  #38910  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

The definitive book on how and why we voted in the referendum....The Road to Somewhere..by David Goodheart....member of the Think Tank on immigration policy

Makes veeerrrrry interesting reading.....

A snippet....37% of Labour Voters ..voted to leave... Highest support for remain 57% was from the top social class's ( A's and B's)
People in council houses voted to leave Only 36% in the lowest social class's C2 D and E voted to Remain
People who had paid off their mortgages voted to leave 49% sat in the middle class's who voted to Remain

The divide was about Education,Mobility, Profession. The higher educated you were the more you were likely to have voted Remain.-ie 66% of graduates voted remain
This describes people as being divided into two tribes. Citizens of Somewhere ( Leave) or citizens of Anywhere ( remain)

Highly recommend this book.
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