British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

SultanOfSwing Sep 15th 2016 2:47 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12053160)
We carry a heavy load - the right and privilege of the British to take the piss, despite all odds and in the face of the self-importance of Little England.

Self-aware and self depreciating humor is about as British as one can get.

What is the polar opposite of bring British is running away from your problems, overestimating your place in the world and treating your own and international citizens like crap.

Lion in Winter Sep 15th 2016 2:53 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12053163)
Self-aware and self depreciating humor is about as British as one can get.

What is the polar opposite of bring British is running away from your problems, overestimating your place in the world and treating your own and international citizens like crap.

You would think we could aspire a little higher than that, wouldn't you.

SultanOfSwing Sep 15th 2016 2:53 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12053173)
You would think we could aspire a little higher than that, wouldn't you.

You know how dangerous thinking is ...

Bipat Sep 15th 2016 3:01 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12053112)
Right. An awful lot of faffing about, an increase in divisive, nationalistic sentiment, quite likely a bucketload of money and as yet unknown implications for the economy and all for what? Not much of a tangible change by the looks of it.

This whole isolationist sentiment though gets me. What kinds of countries like to isolate themselves from the rest of the world anyway? Surely not ones like North Korea, right?



Do you occupy an alternative reality or something? Your posts are starting to read like a series of Daily Express articles.


The majority of the world's countries are not members of the EU. The entire continent of Europe countries not members of the EU.
It is a trade organisation which yes, also has the aim of a Federal Europe.

How is UK leaving membership of a particular trade organisation "isolating themselves from the rest of the world"?
How is aiming for more trade relationships with the rest of the world--isolation?
How is hoping for equal rules for non-EU and EU migrants isolation?
Why did those migrants of non-EU origin vote in the same proportion to leave?

Do you advocate a Federation of North American countries? If not why not?

The only valid argument for remaining was economic, regards this they may possibly be right it will take time to tell.

Ingles Sep 15th 2016 3:09 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12052991)


Also in the link posted by Basterdly

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brighton-beachgoers-come-aid-refugees-8839533#rlabs=2%20rt$category%20p$5

Seems the beach was only occupied by "Remoners"

paulry Sep 15th 2016 3:10 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12053184)
The majority of the world's countries are not members of the EU. The entire continent of Europe countries not members of the EU.
It is a trade organisation which yes, also has the aim of a Federal Europe.

How is UK leaving membership of a particular trade organisation "isolating themselves from the rest of the world"?
How is aiming for more trade relationships with the rest of the world--isolation?
How is hoping for equal rules for non-EU and EU migrants isolation?
Why did those migrants of non-EU origin vote in the same proportion to leave?

Do you advocate a Federation of North American countries? If not why not?

The only valid argument for remaining was economic, regards this they may possibly be right it will take time to tell.

Why not have a federation of North and South American countries. That would be more similar to the EU.

SultanOfSwing Sep 15th 2016 3:14 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12053184)
The majority of the world's countries are not members of the EU. The entire continent of Europe countries not members of the EU.
It is a trade organisation which yes, also has the aim of a Federal Europe.

How is UK leaving membership of a particular trade organisation "isolating themselves from the rest of the world"?
How is aiming for more trade relationships with the rest of the world--isolation?
How is hoping for equal rules for non-EU and EU migrants isolation?
Why did those migrants of non-EU origin vote in the same proportion to leave?

Do you advocate a Federation of North American countries? If not why not?

The only valid argument for remaining was economic, regards this they may possibly be right it will take time to tell.

This was never about trade for the majority of people who voted leave. That was the attitude I was referring to, not the official line.

Surely the UK was free to trade with whatever country they wanted to though, even while still in the EU. Perhaps it was affected by tariffs that made in unattractive for certain countries though. They may yet be subjected to conditions that still make it unattractive after Brexit, we won't know until then. Even with all that, the UK is a service based economy anyway. They may have a lot to offer as a buyer, but they don't have a lot to sell. Niche-market boutique sports cars and F1 teams will only get you so far, after all.

The suggestion that there was some kind of inequality for immigration seems like a red herring to me (spouse visa financial requirements notwithstanding). The free movement was a reciprocal agreement, so by that rationale, UK citizens moving to Spain, France, Germany etc would have to also have been doing that at the expense of non-EU immigrants to those countries, or does it not work both ways? There will always be immigration, with or without the EU and many EU citizens will still be able to get in via normal immigration channels in post-Brexit Britain as well. I doubt they will have quotas per country - it's a case of meet requirements, get visa. End of.

I'm not advocating a federation of European countries, so asking about a North American federation is sort of pointless.

paulry Sep 15th 2016 3:25 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
And there's me thinking Britain originally voted for membership of the common market

Bipat Sep 15th 2016 3:31 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12053199)
This was never about trade for the majority of people who voted leave. That was the attitude I was referring to, not the official line.

Surely the UK was free to trade with whatever country they wanted to though, even while still in the EU. Perhaps it was affected by tariffs that made in unattractive for certain countries though. They may yet be subjected to conditions that still make it unattractive after Brexit, we won't know until then. Even with all that, the UK is a service based economy anyway. They may have a lot to offer as a buyer, but they don't have a lot to sell. Niche-market boutique sports cars and F1 teams will only get you so far, after all.

The suggestion that there was some kind of inequality for immigration seems like a red herring to me (spouse visa financial requirements notwithstanding). The free movement was a reciprocal agreement, so by that rationale, UK citizens moving to Spain, France, Germany etc would have to also have been doing that at the expense of non-EU immigrants to those countries, or does it not work both ways? There will always be immigration, with or without the EU and many EU citizens will still be able to get in via normal immigration channels in post-Brexit Britain as well. I doubt they will have quotas per country - it's a case of meet requirements, get visa. End of.

I'm not advocating a federation of European countries, so asking about a North American federation is sort of pointless.

How do you know what the majority of those who voted leave thought? The analysis of non-EU origin migrant voters was carried out by the TOI.

Non-EU immigrants have always had an historical and particular importance for the UK, obviously with free movement of EU migrants the number of non-EU was restricted. Obviously after Brexit EU migrants will still come on the same visa basis as non-EU, that is what the leave campaign have suggested.

Trade with non-EU countries, I have put several links regarding those eager for bilateral deals.

Federation---have you read the Constitution of the EU? That is the ultimate aim. There has been a 'creeping' Federalisation, particularly since the Lisbon Treaty.

Vexcore Sep 15th 2016 3:33 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12053208)
And there's me thinking Britain originally voted for membership of the common market

:lol:

amideislas Sep 15th 2016 3:38 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12053215)

Federation---have you read the Constitution of the EU? That is the ultimate aim. There has been a 'creeping' Federalisation, particularly since the Lisbon Treaty.

And Britain has been the main opposition. Despite it having been Britain's idea in the first place.

But with Britain's despise for Europe out of the way, maybe some progress can finally be made.

amideislas Sep 15th 2016 3:40 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12053208)
And there's me thinking Britain originally voted for membership of the common market

Well, you need not worry about it anymore. Brexit is brexit, remember?

SultanOfSwing Sep 15th 2016 3:45 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12053215)
How do you know what the majority of those who voted leave thought? The analysis of non-EU origin migrant voters was carried out by the TOI.

I'm not presenting a paper here, just expressing thoughts as are you. It's OK if you think I'm wrong, this isn't an objective viewpoint.


Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12053215)
Non-EU immigrants have always had an historical and particular importance for the UK, obviously with free movement of EU migrants the number of non-EU was restricted. Obviously after Brexit EU migrants will still come on the same visa basis as non-EU, that is what the leave campaign have suggested.

Essentially though, there will be no net change here. Whoever gets in gets in, and it may end up that EU citizens still appear to outnumber non-EU citizens. Then it will have been something of a waste of time.


Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12053215)
Trade with non-EU countries, I have put several links regarding those eager for bilateral deals.

Yes, they are willing now. Post-Brexit, will the conditions still be favourable for them? We don't know and won't until then. That could be a few years yet, so this one's on hold for now as well.

Obviously, those countries are ones who have something to sell. Or are countries around the world going to set up their call centres in the UK now instead of India or Mexico?

"'Ello, guv, it's Gav 'ere, 'ah can oi 'elp you tahday". Oh that'll be lovely :whistle:


Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12053215)
Federation---have you read the Constitution of the EU? That is the ultimate aim. There has been a 'creeping' Federalisation, particularly since the Lisbon Treaty.

That's as may be. I don't actively push for Federation but I guess if I'm being honest, I don't have that much of a problem with it.

My whole reason for supporting remain (and it's still OK to believe that the UK should remain in the EU, even if it is going to leave, so whoever is going to start that broken record again can save their time) was that I didn't think it was worth potentially risking the future of the UK economically, or however else, on intangibles that nobody can give a clear picture of, for a movement with no clear goal other than 'getting these unelected bureaucrats off our back' (who will then just end up being replaced by elected bureaucrats anyway). But **** me for having a mind of my own, I suppose.

Fredbargate Sep 15th 2016 3:51 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12053208)
And there's me thinking Britain originally voted for membership of the common market

They were conned

Lion in Winter Sep 15th 2016 4:18 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12053208)
And there's me thinking Britain originally voted for membership of the common market


Originally Posted by Fredbargate (Post 12053231)
They were conned

Sometimes, over the course of 45 years or so, opportunities change, ideas develop, and thinking expands. Not everybody can do that of course.


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