British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

DigitalGhost May 23rd 2018 3:24 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12504148)
That's not to say that reform would have happened with the UK in place ...... but as an irritant it was a vector for change.... and without it I fear the same stagnation will continue.

If that was really going to happen then it would have already happened by now.

DigitalGhost May 23rd 2018 3:27 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12504145)
.
Amicable? Not if you read the claims by Brexiters that the EU is punishing us.

We live in an era of 24 hour news and constant clickbait and social media bullshit where every single bump in the road is reported and scrutinised to death. The process possibly is being made more complicated and troublesome than it really needs to be but the media don't exactly help.

amideislas May 23rd 2018 3:31 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12504148)
I agree with the first paragraphs, but it was ever thus. Spain and Portugal were once rich and powerful countries and believed that they stood astride the world, but they made poor choices too.

However, your last remark is very, very wide of the mark - the UK leaving the EU will bring no benefit. The EU needs fundamental reform, but the bureaucracy, inefficiency and petty corruption that infests EU bodies will continue unchecked - because patently Germany and France have no interest in changing it and the rest don't count or are too busy trying to get as much as possible out of the coffers to rock the boat. That's not to say that reform would have happened with the UK in place ...... but as an irritant it was a vector for change.... and without it I fear the same stagnation will continue.

i *sort of* disagree with your presumption that the EU is terribly bureaucratic or inefficient. Admittedly, any large governmental body exhibits those characteristics, but the EU doesn't remotely resemble, for example, the Soviet Union, perhaps the single most inefficient government in history.

But highlighted in bold above, is another reason why Brexit may be exactly what the EU needs. In addition of course, to ridding itself of an adversarial member with veto powers.

macliam May 23rd 2018 3:31 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12504151)
If that was really going to happen then it would have already happened by now.

That comment suits your agenda, but is disingenuous. Since the UK joined the EU has been concentrating on expansion and then reaction to the economic crisis - reform happens when there is stability.

jimenato May 23rd 2018 3:32 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12504153)
We live in an era of 24 hour news and constant clickbait and social media bullshit where every single bump in the road is reported and scrutinised to death. The process possibly is being made more complicated and troublesome than it really needs to be but the media don't exactly help.

Well obviously none of this is the leave voters fault so it has to be somebody else's.

amideislas May 23rd 2018 3:34 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12504153)
We live in an era of 24 hour news and constant clickbait and social media bullshit where every single bump in the road is reported and scrutinised to death. The process possibly is being made more complicated and troublesome than it really needs to be but the media don't exactly help.

True. The UK could do what it voted for, and leave.

But the Brexit government has finally discovered that it's kind of dependent on some membership benefits that it hadn't considered in the euphoria of its flag-waving exercise. And THAT'S what's holding it up.

007Steve May 23rd 2018 3:46 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12504157)
Well obviouslynone of this is the leave voters fault so it has to be somebody else's.

...... :popcorn:.... Ooh, let's see now..... Guardian readers? ... Fawlty Towers Manuel? .. The Womens' Institute??.... :unsure:

macliam May 23rd 2018 3:57 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12504155)
i *sort of* disagree with your presumption that the EU is terribly bureaucratic or inefficient. Admittedly, any large governmental body exhibits those characteristics, but the EU doesn't remotely resemble, for example, the Soviet Union, perhaps the single most inefficient government in history.

But highlighted in bold above, is another reason why Brexit may be exactly what the EU needs. In addition of course, to ridding itself of an adversarial member with veto powers.

I disagree with your view. The EU systems are based on the "normal" European model arising from the Napoleonic code and constitutional law. Anyone who has lived in most European countries will recognise it and it is far from perfect - not on a par with the USSR or some other basket cases, but far from perfect. The EU view is every bit as arrogant as the British one, with a presumption that they know best, regardless of history - the Euro has been testament to that, where the so-called checks and balances were thrown aside in the rush to implement a flawed concept. An inability to change or absorb or use other models is not a strength, but a fundamental weakness.

The problem is that reform will not happen without recognition that there is a problem - and acceptance of the flaws "for the greater good" just allows them to continue. That the UK was an irritant is undeniable - but so is the fact that the EU was started as a Franco-German club and they have done best out of the project. The EU will grind on due to it's size and strength, but it will not be sccessful until it evolves into something that meets the needs of the constituent parties, not just those who shout loudest.

DigitalGhost May 23rd 2018 3:57 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by 007Steve (Post 12504161)
.....The Womens' Institute??

Don't even get me started on those bastards. :lol:

materialcontroller May 23rd 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Brexit: Technology-based customs system 'could cost £20bn' - BBC News

Red Eric May 23rd 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12504153)
We live in an era of 24 hour news and constant clickbait and social media bullshit where every single bump in the road is reported and scrutinised to death. The process possibly is being made more complicated and troublesome than it really needs to be but the media don't exactly help.

Interesting observation, coming from someone who appears to be plucking stuff out of thin air and presenting it as fact but can't present any relevant examples of what is claimed when asked.

DigitalGhost May 23rd 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12504183)
Interesting observation, coming from someone who appears to be plucking stuff out of thin air and presenting it as fact but can't present any relevant examples of what is claimed when asked.

I already did. They were just things that you didn't agree with because they related to refugees and immigration controls.

Red Eric May 23rd 2018 5:25 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12504187)
I already did. They were just things that you didn't agree with because they related to refugees and immigration controls.

I agree that all the sweeping claims you made were, in fact, confined to your view on refugees and nothing else. I had already as good as pointed that out when I asked the questions.

You couldn't even manage to separate freedom of movement and refugees and I wasn't the only poster to point that out.

DigitalGhost May 23rd 2018 5:37 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12504194)
You couldn't even manage to separate freedom of movement and refugees and I wasn't the only poster to point that out.

As far as I know, I've never mixed those two things up. I consider them to be very different things. I do think the UK gets a bum deal on freedom of movement but I don't think any other EU member state is going out of its way to screw the UK over in that regard. The UK has just looked like an attractive destination because of the economic issues on parts of the continent.

007Steve May 23rd 2018 6:03 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
,... Perhaps British ex-pats might want to pass-the-hat for this... :unsure... after all, we're more likely to see it & feel proud rather than Brits at home....:unsure:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/boris-johnson-foreign-office-own-plane-voyager
:blink:... Suggestions as to name.... Windbag#1??


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