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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Annetje May 19th 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12502330)
Yes ....... yes ... I can probably come to some sort of compromise with you there. Very different ideas about what constitutes leftism. Hold that thought.

Me : the EU is all about neoliberalism.
You : Thatcherite Conservatives are commies.

I wonder if you can quess which of these is closer to the truth?

In addition to your own judgement, you have 3 assistants remaining : phone a friend, 50/50 or ask the audience. What are you thinking?

Take the 50/50 !!!!!!!!!!!

DigitalGhost May 19th 2018 9:52 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12502326)
No snarkiness assumed.

After 5 years residence, one applies for PR (which becomes invalid after we leave the EU, and with uncertainty over what follows). Once PR is received, Citizenship can be applied for (no waiting for a year) at a cost of £1,330.

Yet for me, 5yr Canadian residence as a family member of a Canadian, plus PR, is CA$550 = £317 at today's rate. We lived together for 5 years in Canada and about 2.5yrs married but living in separate countries. We'll make moving back to Canada work.



So no 'ever closer union' that Leave was so vocally against, then?



Just don't leave me this way... Oh wait, that was the Communards......

You can become a Canadian after 3 years these days. The paperwork they gave me says that I'm eligible after 3 years residence and normally that side of things seems to be easier for a spouse or family member than any other type of immigrant.

I had an application fee for Canada plus the residency fee so I think it was around £500. Some of that might not apply to you though.

Best of luck with it all.

DigitalGhost May 19th 2018 9:54 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12502330)
Yes ....... yes ... I can probably come to some sort of compromise with you there. Very different ideas about what constitutes leftism. Hold that thought.

Me : the EU is all about neoliberalism.
You : Thatcherite Conservatives are commies.

I wonder if you can quess which of these is closer to the truth?

In addition to your own judgement, you have 3 assistants remaining : phone a friend, 50/50 or ask the audience. What are you thinking?

I'm just confused about how a Thatcherite Conservative could be such a harderned Europhile. :lol:

amideislas May 20th 2018 4:59 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12502237)
I consider any British person who blindly supports the EU but isn't a far-left politician or corporate financier type to be exhibiting communist tendancies. The EU is effectively ran by a largely un-elected, unanswerable and bloated cadre in Brussels and their key philosophy seems to be that Europeans should be able to wander the continent and settle down roots as they see fit because all European countries and citizens are created equal (which, incidentally, they most certainly are not).

ahhhh... now it all comes out.

jimenato May 20th 2018 6:06 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12502345)
I'm just confused about how a Thatcherite Conservative could be such a harderned Europhile. :lol:

Thatcher was one of the main proponents of the single internal market and the majority of Conservative MPs voted remain so I don't know why you would be surprised.

Also much of the support for the Leave side came from traditional Labour heartlands - the now diminished industrial areas - the 'left-behind' - the 'disadvantaged'.

Corbyn himself has always been anti-EU as has much of the hard left.

The myth that left equates to remain and right equates to leave has come about because the Conservatives are in government and therefore have to implement Brexit and Labour are in opposition and therefore have to oppose the Conservatives.

(To be clear I was in favour of some of what Thatcher achieved early on as PM but by no means all. But don't lets allow ourselves to get diverted to a discussion on Thatcher. For the purposes of this thread - I am in accord with her stance on Europe as, I suspect, are some others on here who would vilify her for everything else she did).

amideislas May 20th 2018 6:43 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12502410)
Thatcher was one of the main proponents of the single internal market and the majority of Conservative MPs voted remain so I don't know why you would be surprised.

Also much of the support for the Leave side came from traditional Labour heartlands - the now diminished industrial areas - the 'left-behind' - the 'disadvantaged'.

Corbyn himself has always been anti-EU as has much of the hard left.

The myth that left equates to remain and right equates to leave has come about because the Conservatives are in government and therefore have to implement Brexit and Labour are in opposition and therefore have to oppose the Conservatives.

(To be clear I was in favour of some of what Thatcher achieved early on as PM but by no means all. But don't lets allow ourselves to get diverted to a discussion on Thatcher. For the purposes of this thread - I am in accord with her stance on Europe as, I suspect, are some others on here who would vilify her for everything else she did).

this.

...although I would add that the far left is anti-EU because they believe it is much too conservative, while the far right is anti-EU because they believe it is much too liberal. The fact is that from a macro view (generally speaking) the EU exhibits something in between. Rather "centrist". And I reckon that has much to do with the influence of such a broad range of cultures and interests. It just lands somewhere in the middle. And IMO, that's a good thing. And rather refreshing in these times of blind polarisation.

Red Eric May 20th 2018 7:29 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12502410)
The myth that left equates to remain and right equates to leave has come about because the Conservatives are in government and therefore have to implement Brexit and Labour are in opposition and therefore have to oppose the Conservatives.

I think the completely spurious idea that the EU is all lefty goes a long, long way further back than that. The noisiest Eurosceptics in the UK are the Tory right and UKIP and they've had any amount of support from the larger part of the news organisations. If it wasn't actually a notion pushed by them, it certainly seems to have been an assumption that was very easily arrived at. You only have to look back on here to the more ardent leaver posts prior to the referendum to see it very much in evidence - the "loony lefty" tag was a constant refrain - but I'm sure it ran a lot deeper than that, thanks to the 40 Year Whinge.

DigitalGhost May 20th 2018 9:30 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12502426)
The noisiest Eurosceptics in the UK are the Tory right and UKIP and they've had any amount of support from the larger part of the news organisations. If it wasn't actually a notion pushed by them, it certainly seems to have been an assumption that was very easily arrived at.

Well, to be fair, the rabid pro-EU stance taken by the likes of the Greens, the SNP and the Liberal Democrats really doesn't help.

IMHO though, any organisation that pushes the ridiculous open immigration policies that the EU enforces must be, by definition, leftist.

Red Eric May 20th 2018 9:44 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Yes, I'm fully aware of what's at the heart of your (and others') belief but it's all part of the same deception.

Nor do I agree with your use of terms - rabidly pro-EU is hardly how I'd describe, for example, The Greens. They're certainly not uncritical on matters when the occasion arises.

amideislas May 20th 2018 9:51 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12502468)
Well, to be fair, the rabid pro-EU stance taken by the likes of the Greens, the SNP and the Liberal Democrats really doesn't help.

IMHO though, any organisation that pushes the ridiculous open immigration policies that the EU enforces must be, by definition, leftist.

You post seems to assume that anti-EU sentiment is somehow the norm. Maybe it is for you;

"rabid pro-EU" taken by those lefty parties (you know, the little insignificant ones).

Yet globally (e.g., outside of England), anti-EU sentiment (particularly the "rabid" type exhibited by England) is only harboured by rather fringe groups (a pretty fractional minority of the political spectrum).

​​​

DigitalGhost May 20th 2018 10:01 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12502479)
You post seems to assume that anti-EU sentiment is somehow the norm. Maybe it is for you;

"rabid pro-EU" taken by those lefty parties (you know, the little insignificant ones).

Yet globally (e.g., outside of England), anti-EU sentiment (particularly the "rabid" type exhibited by England) is only harboured by rather fringe groups (a pretty fractional minority of the political spectrum).

​​​

I assume that when you say "globally" and "outside of England", you mean in Europe. I doubt most people in Asia or the Americas could care less tbh. Many people I've spoken with on other continents have said that they think the way the UK allows Europe to dictate immigration policy is madness.

You have to wonder why no other trade bloc in the world has copied the EU's FoM model. Surely if it was such a beneficial and amazing system then everyone else would be scrambling to implement it, no?

DigitalGhost May 20th 2018 10:04 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12502476)
Nor do I agree with your use of terms - rabidly pro-EU is hardly how I'd describe, for example, The Greens. They're certainly not uncritical on matters when the occasion arises.

I'm sure they're not but I despise the Greens at the best of times and I'm only grateful that they don't have any real political power. Who knows what the hell would happen if they did. We'd probably all be sharing a 1 room shack with 2 refugee families and trying to power a camp stove by recycling our own shit.

DaveLovesDee May 20th 2018 10:17 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12502468)
Well, to be fair, the rabid pro-EU stance taken by the likes of the Greens, the SNP and the Liberal Democrats really doesn't help.

IMHO though, any organisation that pushes the ridiculous open immigration policies that the EU enforces must be, by definition, leftist.

None of the parties are 'rabidly' pro-EU. I'm a Green Party member and there are many things our Green MEPs are doing in the EU Parliament to the benefit of the UK. But there are many things we'd also like to do which require the support of other MEPs of different parties and political groupings.


Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12502476)
Yes, I'm fully aware of what's at the heart of your (and others') belief but it's all part of the same deception.

Nor do I agree with your use of terms - rabidly pro-EU is hardly how I'd describe, for example, The Greens. They're certainly not uncritical on matters when the occasion arises.

Yup, we're definitely critical where it's deserved.

amideislas May 20th 2018 10:20 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12502482)
I assume that when you say "globally" and "outside of England", you mean in Europe. I doubt most people in Asia or the Americas could care less tbh. Many people I've spoken with on other continents have said that they think the way the UK allows Europe to dictate immigration policy is madness.

You have to wonder why no other trade bloc in the world has copied the EU's FoM model. Surely if it was such a beneficial and amazing system then everyone else would be scrambling to implement it, no?

by " outside of England" I include the EU-27. Even within those member states, real "anti-EU" sentiment is on the fringe. Few are "rabidly pro-EU", but precious few subscribe to the same rabid anti-EU sentiment that so many in England do. But I believe that's a product of an ubiquitously sensationalist (and politically active) British press.

As far as the "rest of the world", the Asians and Americans look on with economic interest. After all, the EU is the world's first or second largest economy, and trade with that market is indeed significant. Japan has been warning Britain since the referendum (in language about as strong as the Japanese ever muster).

Like England, the US is in "protectionist" mode at the moment, and seem to be anti-everything, but when it comes to Britain, see nothing more than a few bargains to be had in negotiations with a soon-to-be desperate country open to all kinds of concessions. Trump recently said he plans to demand the NHS pay more for drugs. You can be sure that's just the beginning. And he'll likely get most anything he demands, because the UK is going to be desperate for some kind of trade deal.

​​​​China is far more interested in trade with the EU, and already enjoys a huge trade surplus with the EU. Canada, Mexico, and loads of others as well. Hardly "anti-EU"...

DaveLovesDee May 20th 2018 10:38 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12502482)
Many people I've spoken with on other continents have said that they think the way the UK allows Europe to dictate immigration policy is madness.

Maybe it's because those people have been misinformed of what part of the UK immigration policy the UK is dictated to by the EU.

UK immigration policy is solely decided in Westminster, but has to take into account UN agreements and EU law, both of which the UK have willingly signed up to at various points. The UK immigration policy also takes into account any agreements with other countries. No-one 'dictates' anything.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12502483)
I'm sure they're not but I despise the Greens at the best of times and I'm only grateful that they don't have any real political power. Who knows what the hell would happen if they did. We'd probably all be sharing a 1 room shack with 2 refugee families and trying to power a camp stove by recycling our own shit.

You despise the Greens, you say. Why?

What's wrong with reducing our dependency on fossil fuels and replacing them with renewable energy? And the mud hut thing isn't a Green policy, just something those who don't understand what we're trying to achieve use to belittle us.

If countries such as the US and UK spent as much time, effort and money on actually helping other countries improve, instead of bombing them, those countries wouldn't have refugees fleeing abroad. The West's foreign policies are the problem instead of the solution. And Brexit isn't going to change anything.


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