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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

DigitalGhost May 10th 2018 10:12 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12497058)
How does that equate to the Canadian situation where they have a Free Trade Agreement with the EU and are part of NAFTA?
If the UK has a Free Trade Agreement with the EU it can still negotiate bilateral Agreements with other countries which it cannot do if it is part of the EU Customs Union.

Because every FTA that Canada signs has limitations built into it. Canada is very clever in that regard and won't sign into anything that it feels might put its own economic growth or labour market at risk. They would never accept a FoM-type deal with Europe, not in a million years. They don't even have that with the US. In fact, unlike the US, I don't even think that Canada has a special category visa for NAFTA. Any American who wants to live and work in Canada needs to go through the same immigration processes that we do. I know because I've seen YouTube videos where failed American applicants who thought moving to Canada would be a breeze suddenly get a rude awakening and whinge about it.

Former Lancastrian May 10th 2018 10:39 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12497063)
Because every FTA that Canada signs has limitations built into it. Canada is very clever in that regard and won't sign into anything that it feels might put its own economic growth or labour market at risk. They would never accept a FoM-type deal with Europe, not in a million years. They don't even have that with the US. In fact, unlike the US, I don't even think that Canada has a special category visa for NAFTA. Any American who wants to live and work in Canada needs to go through the same immigration processes that we do. I know because I've seen YouTube videos where failed American applicants who thought moving to Canada would be a breeze suddenly get a rude awakening and whinge about it.

Actually for certain US or Mexican citizens it is fairly easy to get a job but not move permanently under NAFTA

NAFTA lets citizens of Canada, the United States and Mexico gain quick entry into each other’s countries for temporary business or investment reasons.
These people do not need a Labour Market Impact Assessment (LMIA). This means that Canadian employers do not need to have a job offer approved by Employment and Social Development Canada to hire an American or a Mexican business person.
Under NAFTA, business people must meet the general rules for temporary entry to Canada.
There are four groups of business people under NAFTA:
  • business visitors
  • professionals
  • intra-company transferees
  • traders and investors
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration...ple.html#nafta

DigitalGhost May 10th 2018 10:53 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12497077)
Actually for certain US or Mexican citizens it is fairly easy to get a job but not move permanently under NAFTA

NAFTA lets citizens of Canada, the United States and Mexico gain quick entry into each other’s countries for temporary business or investment reasons.
These people do not need a Labour Market Impact Assessment (LMIA). This means that Canadian employers do not need to have a job offer approved by Employment and Social Development Canada to hire an American or a Mexican business person.
Under NAFTA, business people must meet the general rules for temporary entry to Canada.
There are four groups of business people under NAFTA:
  • business visitors
  • professionals
  • intra-company transferees
  • traders and investors
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration...ple.html#nafta

I stand corrected then. I knew America had a special visa for Canadian and Mexican citizens but I didn't know that Canada had a reciprocal one.

Does that have any route to PR? Because I know the American TN visa doesn't.

Former Lancastrian May 10th 2018 10:59 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12497083)
I stand corrected then. I knew America had a special visa for Canadian and Mexican citizens but I didn't know that Canada had a reciprocal one.

Does that have any route to PR? Because I know the American TN visa doesn't.

Yes there could be several routes to PR status be it PNP, FSW or Canadian Experience Class and obviously Spousal Sponsorship if they end up marrying/common law a Canadian.
Most are US citizens under NAFTA that come to Canada some decide to stay but I suspect the vast majority go back to the US as they consider the US as home.

DigitalGhost May 10th 2018 11:23 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12497086)
Yes there could be several routes to PR status be it PNP, FSW or Canadian Experience Class and obviously Spousal Sponsorship if they end up marrying/common law a Canadian.
Most are US citizens under NAFTA that come to Canada some decide to stay but I suspect the vast majority go back to the US as they consider the US as home.

All makes sense then, thank you. I'm guessing the ones who apply under the normal EE system are the ones either looking for the highest level of stability or who would struggle to secure a job offer. One of them I saw on YouTube last year spent 45 minutes moaning because her application was rejected. Turned out that she'd submitted an EE FSW profile (via an immigration agent I might add) and declared Quebec as her chosen destination. The comments underneath weren't kind.

la mancha May 10th 2018 12:39 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12497047)
No but government policy hasn't really been aimed at accommodating it in the best possible way or curbing abuse of it.

I think some people voted as they did because the campaigns were aimed at (and succeeded in) inducing a sense of panic about a largely mythical loss of control and the spectre of hordes (and hordes of a particular creed, to boot) at the door.

More of the same? Will taking away the immigration of unskilled labour (if indeed that is an outcome) actually resolve most of what people feel to be wrong? I know it will satisfy some but will it on its own make a tangible difference? And what if it's only a cosmetic change, anyway? Suppose they're not counted as immigrants but seasonal or temporary workers? Will that help?

People voted the way they did because there is no way of accommodating issues like FOM. It is so easy to blame governments but FOM is not government policy.

You talk about possible outcomes with Brexit but I must say again this is typical Remainer argument. There is no other choice for change within the EU. So people voted to leave. If there is a choice for change tell me how? How will staying in the EU improve peoples’ lot? How?

la mancha May 10th 2018 12:43 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12497060)
It's nothing like that that at all. But nobody could possibly believe that allowing an almost endless stream of unskilled and often illiterate migrants into a country without regulation is a good idea.

Look, if you're living a great life under EU treaty rights in the likes of Spain or Portugal then I can see why you might think that EU FoM is a fantastic idea however try telling that to the single mother who works as a part-time hotel cleaner and has just had her hours cut because agency contracted Romanians will do the same job for less. Wage stagnation is bad enough in the UK without adding an un-metered foreign workforce into the mix.

Round my neck of the woods that single mother would not even get through the front door of an east European staffed agency (which most of them are) to register, and no doubt it is the same all over the UK. What incentive does that single mother have for voting to stay in the EU?

DaveLovesDee May 10th 2018 12:47 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12497139)
Round my neck of the woods that single mother would not even get through the front door of an east European staffed agency (which most of them are) to register, and no doubt it is the same all over the UK. What incentive does that single mother have for voting to stay in the EU?

Round our way, single mothers tend to be the least employable in any agency, as potential employers look at the risk of missing shifts due to childcare issues or absences due to sick children. Those that do work, tend to work evenings and/or weekends..

DigitalGhost May 10th 2018 12:55 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12497135)
People voted the way they did because there is no way of accommodating issues like FOM. It is so easy to blame governments but FOM is not government policy.

You talk about possible outcomes with Brexit but I must say again this is typical Remainer argument. There is no other choice for change within the EU. So people voted to leave. If there is a choice for change tell me how? How will staying in the EU improve peoples’ lot? How?

I still believe that the EU should offer member states the individual right to opt in or out of FoM. With all of the bloc expansion that has taken place after the last couple of decades, it is pretty much an unworkable system these days, particularly when you're dealing with member states of such vast social and economic disparity. It's ripe for abuse by corporations and recruitment agencies, causes a massive strain on housing and resources in the wealthier member states and inflicts wage depression on some of the most vulnerable in society.

Cape Blue May 10th 2018 12:56 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12496843)
I honestly believe that if Remain had put as much energy into listening to and addressing the concerns of just some of those people rather than belittling and insulting them at every opportunity then they could have easily won in the referendum.

The 'anybody who disagrees is a small minded racist' stance that the likes of Eddie Izzard and Sadiq Khan took was never going to work.

Entirely agree, I like Izzard and have been to many of his shows and respect his abilities, but his pre-referendum QT with Farage was an absolute disaster of liberal virtue-signalling and petty insults.

Red Eric May 10th 2018 12:57 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12497060)
It's nothing like that that at all. But nobody could possibly believe that allowing an almost endless stream of unskilled and often illiterate migrants into a country without regulation is a good idea.

Here we go again :rolleyes:

There are conditions attached to freedom of movement, so it doesn't actually have to be without regulation. Most of the EU migrants entering the UK are doing so in order to work, for which they need whatever skills employers are looking for.

I have absolutely no idea whatsoever where you get it from that any of them at all (let alone substantial numbers) are illiterate, especially not when it has been such a frequent claim by Brexiters that one of the major draws of the UK is the language, with which many foreigners are already familiar. Hordes of illiterate speakers of a foreign language - really!

And don't come over all huffy with me and say I'm twisting your words. If you mean not particularly fluent in English, then say so rather than use a completely inappropriate term. An initial lack of fluency in English isn't necessarily any sort of barrier to starting work and going on to lead a completely normal life there anyway, even if it is forever with a foreign accent and all the prejudices against them that inspires.

DigitalGhost May 10th 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12497149)
Entirely agree, I like Izzard and have been to many of his shows and respect his abilities, but his pre-referendum QT with Farage was an absolute disaster of liberal virtue-signalling and petty insults.

Yes I totally agree. I still cringe when I think back to that. The day when Farage can easily make you look like a twat is the day when you really need to start re-evaluating your approach.

I've enjoyed his stand up shows in the past as well and loved his acting in Hannibal but I lost all respect for him after his behaviour in the Remain campaign. Condescending and insulting don't even begin to describe it.

Red Eric May 10th 2018 1:01 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12496843)
I honestly believe that if Remain had put as much energy into listening to and addressing the concerns of just some of those people rather than belittling and insulting them at every opportunity then they could have easily won in the referendum.

The 'anybody who disagrees is a small minded racist' stance that the likes of Eddie Izzard and Sadiq Khan took was never going to work.

Can we have some examples of what it was that Khan said that leads you to make that comment about him, please?

Thanks :thumbup:

Red Eric May 10th 2018 1:03 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12497147)
I still believe that the EU should offer member states the individual right to opt in or out of FoM. With all of the bloc expansion that has taken place after the last couple of decades, it is pretty much an unworkable system these days, particularly when you're dealing with member states of such vast social and economic disparity. It's ripe for abuse by corporations and recruitment agencies, causes a massive strain on housing and resources in the wealthier member states and inflicts wage depression on some of the most vulnerable in society.

So, other than the UK, can you think of another member state which strongly disagrees with intra-EU migration?

DigitalGhost May 10th 2018 1:03 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12497150)
Here we go again :rolleyes:

There are conditions attached to freedom of movement, so it doesn't actually have to be without regulation. Most of the EU migrants entering the UK are doing so in order to work, for which they need whatever skills employers are looking for.

I have absolutely no idea whatsoever where you get it from that any of them at all (let alone substantial numbers) are illiterate, especially not when it has been such a frequent claim by Brexiters that one of the major draws of the UK is the language, with which many foreigners are already familiar. Hordes of illiterate speakers of a foreign language - really!

And don't come over all huffy with me and say I'm twisting your words. If you mean not particularly fluent in English, then say so rather than use a completely inappropriate term. An initial lack of fluency in English isn't necessarily any sort of barrier to starting work and going on to lead a completely normal life there anyway, even if it is forever with a foreign accent and all the prejudices against them that inspires.

The fact that they can say hello and order a sandwich in English but not French or German really doesn't say a great deal.

If they have skills to offer or do jobs that no British resident will touch then no problem but we could quite easily have work permit options for those people. With regards to literacy, IMHO if you couldn't pass IELTS and have no extenuating humanitarian argument then you have no business being in the UK or any other anglophone country for that matter. At this point, no other anglophone part of the world apart from Ireland will let you immigrate without a decent IELTS score either.


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