British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

macliam Apr 2nd 2018 11:01 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474299)
Usual eloquent ad-hom from the Celtic fringe.

My point was clear, Gib and NI both want to remain part of or attached to the UK and the UK gov should and will respect this.

The hard border in Ireland is being driven by the EU, the UK is offering various ways of avoiding it and the EU and Irish are playing politics with it.

I'll ignore your usual anti-British/anti-English positions, I know it is something people like you are born into.

I'll ignore your snivelling anglo racism, but not your outright disinformation. The UK government has waffled about their desires to avoid a hard border but when asked to show how it would work they have nothing to say. That is the frustration from the EU - and the reason why the "unacceptable" proposals for a soft border have been accepted as a backstop by May's government.

Cape Blue Apr 2nd 2018 11:05 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12474301)
I'll ignore your snivelling anglo racism, but not your outright disinformation. The UK government has waffled about their desires to avoid a hard border but when asked to show how it would work they have nothing to say. That is the frustration from the EU - and the reason why the "unacceptable" proposals for a soft border have been accepted as a backstop by May's government.

There was no "anglo-racism", just mentioning that I understand why your types feel the need to be anti-English as it's been inculcated all your life.

The EU are the ones pushing for a border, the UK has clearly stated it doesn't want one.

jimenato Apr 2nd 2018 11:15 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474294)
If you want more democracy, perhaps we should have an annual EU referendum vote? Or how about best of three?

You assume that leavers were clueless and did not see what the "consequences of leaving might be" - that is the usual refrain of the loser - "the others didn't know what they were voting for".

Leaving is not for ever - if you want to have another vote in 40 years time then have at it. Sounds about fair.

So - what are the consequences of leaving?

jimenato Apr 2nd 2018 11:18 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474305)
There was no "anglo-racism", just mentioning that I understand why your types feel the need to be anti-English as it's been inculcated all your life.

The EU are the ones pushing for a border, the UK has clearly stated it doesn't want one.

Is that right?

And there was me thinking that securing the UK's borders was one of the main aims of the leave vote.

Are you sure they knew what they were voting for?

macliam Apr 2nd 2018 11:18 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474305)
There was no "anglo-racism", just mentioning that I understand why your types feel the need to be anti-English as it's been inculcated all your life.

The EU are the ones pushing for a border, the UK has clearly stated it doesn't want one.

My "types"? No racism implicit there then! Does that go for all "types" who don't live in your bubble?

Merely stating that the UK does not want a hard border does not prevent one and it was accepted that, since the UK is the one leaving the EU, the UK government would provide the solution to the problem they are causing. This has not been done.

Since one of the root calls of the Brexit camp was to take back control of UK borders, how does closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears equate to that? Strange that you now try to suggest that it is only the EU that insists on a border....

The border situation is not merely about trade, it is also about immigration and the right to travel without documentation - which precedes EU membership. But then, that's only bound up in international treaties - and you seem to think they don't count. Maybe that's why the EU want everything settled and written down on paper - they have learned not to trust UK promises.

Cape Blue Apr 2nd 2018 11:22 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12474309)
So - what are the consequences of leaving?

You tell me.

Cape Blue Apr 2nd 2018 11:31 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12474314)
My "types"? No racism implicit there then! Does that go for all "types" who don't live in your bubble?

Merely stating that the UK does not want a hard border does not prevent one and it was accepted that, since the UK is the one leaving the EU, the UK government would provide the solution to the problem they are causing. This has not been done.

Since one of the root calls of the Brexit camp was to take back control of UK borders, how does closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears equate to that? Strange that you now try to suggest that it is only the EU that insists on a border....

The border situation is not merely about trade, it is also about immigration and the right to travel without documentation - which precedes EU membership. But then, that's only bound up in international treaties - and you seem to think they don't count. Maybe that's why the EU want everything settled and written down on paper - they have learned not to trust UK promises.

You type is a typical ABE Celt - that's not racism, just explaining your negative attitude to the UK/Britain/England.

The UK is not causing a problem, democracy is causing some changes.

The border control that people were desiring was that of immigration. The UK will allow EU citizens to come to the UK without visas for vacations etc, obviously the Irish have an earlier agreement to move and live and work in the UK granted by their friendly neighbour.

Democracy trumps treaties, they will need to be renegotiated.

The NI border issue is clearly one that cannot be settled to the satisfaction of all parties, the democratic vote is the key issue and all else follows that.

As soon as the EU decided that the SM required FOM, it was clear that we would not longer be in the SM and therefore there was no great benefit of being in the CU and therefore we were heading towards a hard border.

jimenato Apr 2nd 2018 11:34 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474316)
You tell me.

Why? How can I?

I have no idea what they will be until the final deal is struck.

You however seem to think that leavers know (or at least that the remainer claim that they didn't know is bogus).

If it's bogus and they do know - what are the consequences?

Cape Blue Apr 2nd 2018 11:41 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12474320)
Why? How can I?

I have no idea what they will be until the final deal is struck.

You however seem to think that leavers know (or at least that the remainer claim that they didn't know is bogus).

If it's bogus and they do know - what are the consequences?

We didn't vote for a particular version of brexit, we voted for brexit and the government told us they would enact our vote - not that they would negotiate with the EU and come back to us for a second opinion.

macliam Apr 2nd 2018 12:03 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474318)
You type is a typical ABE Celt - that's not racism, just explaining your negative attitude to the UK/Britain/England.

The UK is not causing a problem, democracy is causing some changes.

The border control that people were desiring was that of immigration. The UK will allow EU citizens to come to the UK without visas for vacations etc, obviously the Irish have an earlier agreement to move and live and work in the UK granted by their friendly neighbour.

Democracy trumps treaties, they will need to be renegotiated.

The NI border issue is clearly one that cannot be settled to the satisfaction of all parties, the democratic vote is the key issue and all else follows that.

As soon as the EU decided that the SM required FOM, it was clear that we would not longer be in the SM and therefore there was no great benefit of being in the CU and therefore we were heading towards a hard border.

As someone who has lived, worked and paid taxes in the UK for most of my adult life, I thought dinosaurs like you were extinct. I think we all know your "type" - try using that excuse posting about someone who is black or jewish. Perhaps the attitude YOU demonstrate is the real problem.

"Democracy" has nothing to do with treaties. Treaties are legal bi-partisan agreements - that is why they need to be renegotiated. Merely walking away from them demonstrates bad faith and carries consequences. One consequence is that you lose trust - and you will know that trust is the basis for all future negotiation..... not a good start to all the trade deals the UK will need going forward.

Talking of bi-partisan treaties, the CTA is one and was not "granted by their friendly neighbour", it was negotiated as part of treaty discussions, for the UK's benefit as well as Ireland's - so your view of it is just another misconception or deliberate misinformation.

jimenato Apr 2nd 2018 12:16 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474323)
We didn't vote for a particular version of brexit, we voted for brexit and the government told us they would enact our vote - not that they would negotiate with the EU and come back to us for a second opinion.

In spite of what they told us or didn't tell us back then (much was said and much of it was seriously contradictory) it is plain now that we have no real idea about the consequences. Even the people in charge of Brexit are - even at this stage - saying contradictory things.

At some time it will become clear - hopefully.

At that point it would seem sensible to me to ask the question again.

Why would it not be?

DaveLovesDee Apr 2nd 2018 12:17 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474264)
I think I've been very clear:
I believe that for me the positives outweighed the negatives.
That there are valid negatives.
That democracy should rule.

I am a remainer, the remainiacs do not believe there are negatives to the EU and do not believe in democracy.

Yet you keep referring to me as a Remainiac, when I know there are improvements that could be made within the EU. But those changes aren't going to be influenced by a UK outside of the EU.

morpeth Apr 2nd 2018 1:37 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474323)
We didn't vote for a particular version of brexit, we voted for brexit and the government told us they would enact our vote - not that they would negotiate with the EU and come back to us for a second opinion.

If the majority indicate that based on what we now know, or have a different opinion, why shouldn't there be a second vote? There is much division on the issue, a second vote would put the issue to rest and could be a wonderful negotiating tactic at the very least. Remainers would know there wouldn't be time for a third vote, Brexiters emphasize the will of the people. Imagine announcing a third vote, with firm EU agreement that the Uk could revoke its Article 50 process- German business would then put a lot more pressure on Merkel to offer some concessions to get a vote for the UK to stay in the EU.

Brexiters seem to be against another vote simply as they realize the public has now had more time to consider the issue and possibly vote a resounding no.

The other issue is whether there is ANY indication the UK could strike better trade deals than the EU with its larger market can do.

DaveLovesDee Apr 2nd 2018 2:28 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Fredbargate (Post 12474274)
Possibly because the EU is not democratic?

The EU is more democratic than the UK.

la mancha Apr 2nd 2018 2:32 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12474062)
Your original post on the subject was



Which seems to imply that if we don't support British jobs, we won't sign the petition. But also, the jobs haven't been confirmed as being undedr threat, unlike the other companies who been mentioned that don't have petitions to save their jobs. I haven't seen any posts by you supporting petitions for those workers either.

The passports petition is dog-whistle politics, nothing more. You and others are merely using this as another reason to support leaving the EU. I support British workers keeping their jobs, but as has been said before, 100 workers in Gateshead. may or may not lose their jobs, but 70 others are guaranteed in Fareham. Maybe the people of Fareham should have those jobs taken away, then we can sign a petition for that too!

I am not implying anything. I am making a straight statement. ‘If you want to support British jobs here is the link.’ That is all I meant. Off the cuff. I thought I was talking to normal people. Do I now have to be careful what words I use, snowflake?

And I don’t understand your post at all. Today the deadline for challenging the decision has been extended. That is why people sign a petition. If everyone like the Remainers on here kept quiet would this contract have been signed by now? Probably. You say other companies who have been mentioned don’t have petitions then say you haven’t seen any posts by me supporting petitions for those workers. Maybe that is why I haven’t signed them. Let me state if there were petitions for others workers I would definitely sign them. Would you? Going by what you and your Remainer friends’ attitudes are, the answer is ‘NO’. If yes, why others and not for Unite?

As I stated previously, this cuts across political allegiances and Brexit and the EU. As for creating 70 jobs in Fareham; what type of jobs? Are they guaranteed? Skilled jobs may or may not be lost at De La Rue, but again you miss the point. It is about doing something.

You didn’t sign and that is that. Can we put this to sleep now?


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