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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Bipat Sep 13th 2016 5:44 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12051188)
Maybe the EU did get the result they want. Maybe they don't want the UK anymore ...

Actually, being honest, the whole thing is kind of depressing. Here we had this organization, which was far from perfect, but had the potential to be reshaped into something worthwhile, especially if a country as powerful as the UK had put in more of an effort to get in the driver's seat, instead of leaving everything to the Germans to sort out and complaining when it didn't go they way they wanted.

Nationalism and its recent rise is bothering me. How many wars has the world been through because of out-of-control nationalism? How many people have suffered as a result? Yet here we are, still making the same mistakes time and again, while insurgents and terrorists take advantage of our divisive nature to attack. There is no place in the world for exceptionalism anymore, it is time to move on.

So yes, I'm disappointed in the result, and yes, it irritates me when puffed up nationalists put intangibles like 'patriotism' and the like ahead of real issues like poverty and climate change. This referendum was such a pointless exercise when all's said and done, a brexit won't fix anything, it won't make unemployment disappear, it won't make ISIS love us all and stop killing civilians, it won't feed, house and clothe all the kids in Syria and when the sea levels start to rise, it won't stop half of the UK from ending up underwater.

But, hey - you WON, right?

We voted to leave a 'trading club'--Nobody "won".
David Cameron tried to get reforms and failed. How could the UK have got into the "drivers seat"? they are just one of 28 members!

Nationalism--how is wanting to trade more with the rest of the 'globe' instead of just Europe nationalism? What is wrong with a nation state having its own identity (and law system)? Should all the countries of Asia /Africa join together as large federal nations? Should Canada and USA join together as one country??
Why is wanting equal rules for all immigrants nationalism?

You are right regarding world affairs, Brexit is unimportant, however this is a thread about Brexit so posters are discussing it!
Start a thread on world poverty, and the relative poverty in countries such as the USA and UK.

Ingles Sep 13th 2016 5:49 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12051188)
Maybe the EU did get the result they want. Maybe they don't want the UK anymore ...

Actually, being honest, the whole thing is kind of depressing. Here we had this organization, which was far from perfect, but had the potential to be reshaped into something worthwhile, especially if a country as powerful as the UK had put in more of an effort to get in the driver's seat, instead of leaving everything to the Germans to sort out and complaining when it didn't go they way they wanted.

Nationalism and its recent rise is bothering me. How many wars has the world been through because of out-of-control nationalism? How many people have suffered as a result? Yet here we are, still making the same mistakes time and again, while insurgents and terrorists take advantage of our divisive nature to attack. There is no place in the world for exceptionalism anymore, it is time to move on.

So yes, I'm disappointed in the result, and yes, it irritates me when puffed up nationalists put intangibles like 'patriotism' and the like ahead of real issues like poverty and climate change. This referendum was such a pointless exercise when all's said and done, a brexit won't fix anything, it won't make unemployment disappear, it won't make ISIS love us all and stop killing civilians, it won't feed, house and clothe all the kids in Syria and when the sea levels start to rise, it won't stop half of the UK from ending up underwater.

But, hey - you WON, right?

Agree with you 100% :amen:

mfesharne Sep 13th 2016 5:55 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12051239)

Ja. I saw that but I tend to think all the various arguments about whether it be debated again are all opinions & nothing more so it'll be interesting to see whether TM simply triggers A50, makes an announcement before triggering A50 or takes it to debate.

SultanOfSwing Sep 13th 2016 5:58 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12051240)
We voted to leave a 'trading club'--Nobody "won".
David Cameron tried to get reforms and failed. How could the UK have got into the "drivers seat"? they are just one of 28 members!

On the contrary, the way people are running around in here, you'd think they all won with tangible individual contributions to that win.

I was being facetious to emphasize the point you made at the start - nobody won. Furthermore, it isn't a competition anyway.


Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12051240)
Nationalism--how is wanting to trade more with the rest of the 'globe' instead of just Europe nationalism? What is wrong with a nation state having its own identity (and law system)? Should all the countries of Asia /Africa join together as large federal nations? Should Canada and USA join together as one country??
Why is wanting equal rules for all immigrants nationalism?

It is entirely possible to be party of a cooperative global existence while still maintaining separate national identities. The EU was not the 'United States of Europe' and that isn't the argument I am trying to make here. However, the time when Europe was suffering under the grip of nationalism is still within living memory for some people. Why anyone would want to return to that mentality makes no sense to me at all, yet even here in the US we have a far-right authoritarian trying to do just that. It's sad. Pathetic and embarrassing as well, while I'm on it.

All immigrants had equal rules - they were all subject to UK immigration law. Free movement wasn't really immigration anyway. It's not like a few Polish car washes were keeping out anyone else.


Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12051240)
You are right regarding world affairs, Brexit is unimportant, however this is a thread about Brexit so posters are discussing it!
Start a thread on world poverty, and the relative poverty in countries such as the USA and UK.

Actually, if you want to get needlessly technical about it, this thread concerns a topic that doesn't actually exist (post-Brexit). Until Brexit actually happens, it is impossible to get off topic.

HOWEVER, I wanted to point out that the whole Brexit fiasco was another example of politicians failing to see the forest for the trees. That's all.

Dick Dasterdly Sep 13th 2016 6:00 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Companies keep on hiring as S&P says UK has ‘shaken off the Brexit blues’

"Companies intend to keep on hiring in the coming months, according to recruitment group Manpower, though optimism among employers has slowed in most sectors.

The jobs figures are the latest sign that the economy has been resilient despite companies’ fears following the EU referendum – analysts at credit ratings agency Standard & Poor’s said the UK has “shaken off the Brexit blues.”

Manpower’s optimism index now stands at 5pc, indicating that the number of companies increasing headcount outnumbers those which are cutting staff."

DaveLovesDee Sep 13th 2016 6:09 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12051251)
Ja. I saw that but I tend to think all the various arguments about whether it be debated again are all opinions & nothing more so it'll be interesting to see whether TM simply triggers A50, makes an announcement before triggering A50 or takes it to debate.

From my link;


The report points out that although the EU referendum was, in legal terms, advisory, it was accompanied by a clear undertaking by the Government, based on a manifesto commitment, to implement the decision reached in the referendum. In the UK's representative democracy, it should be Parliament which takes the decision to act following the referendum.

The Committee therefore states that Parliament should:

play a central role in the decision to trigger Article 50
have a key role scrutinising both the Brexit negotiations and in approving the final deal between the UK and EU.
TM does not simply trigger A50. The Lords Committee has said it's Parliament's job to decide when it's in the UK's best interest to trigger A50, and to scrutinise the agreements made as a result.

mfesharne Sep 13th 2016 6:19 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12051266)
From my link;



TM does not simply trigger A50. The Lords Committee has said it's Parliament's job to decide when it's in the UK's best interest to trigger A50, and to scrutinise the agreements made as a result.

I think you missed my point. ALL of this & other 'statements' on the subject, including the one I've posted a couple of times (and again below) are nothing more than opinion.

Both DC & TM have said no further Parliamentary discussion is necessary but again it's only opinion & we'll only actually know what'll happen when it happens.

Invoking Article 50: the Law, the Constitution and Politics

"Invoking Article 50: the Law, the Constitution and Politics

The legal power to invoke Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union is in law a prerogative power vested in the Crown, which may be exercised by government ministers without the need for authorisation or consent from Parliament. There is no credible legal argument supporting the legal challenge being advertised by law firm Mishcon de Reya.

Constitutionally the referendum result was decisive and binding and not just advisory. The referendum result not merely authorises but positively mandates the government to exercise its legal power to give notice under Article 50.

As a matter of democratic politics it is astonishing that so many people should apparently regard it as legitimate to engage in activities designed to frustrate the expressed will of the British people. Sadly, this is a symptom of the serious damage which 40 years of membership has done to our sense of national cohesion. This damage can begin to heal once we leave."

amideislas Sep 13th 2016 6:27 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
And they will use that prerogative power. Be sure of it. This entire exercise is going into the shadows now. Like the space capsule travelling on the dark side of the moon. They have the power to do it without interference from parliament and the media, hence the public... And they will. And the public will have to live with the outcome. But that's what they voted for.

DaveLovesDee Sep 13th 2016 6:29 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12051276)
I think you missed my point. ALL of this & other 'statements' on the subject, including the one I've posted a couple of times (and again below) are nothing more than opinion.

Both DC & TM have said no further Parliamentary discussion is necessary but again it's only opinion & we'll only actually know what'll happen when it happens.

Invoking Article 50: the Law, the Constitution and Politics

"Invoking Article 50: the Law, the Constitution and Politics

The legal power to invoke Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union is in law a prerogative power vested in the Crown, which may be exercised by government ministers without the need for authorisation or consent from Parliament. There is no credible legal argument supporting the legal challenge being advertised by law firm Mishcon de Reya.

Constitutionally the referendum result was decisive and binding and not just advisory. The referendum result not merely authorises but positively mandates the government to exercise its legal power to give notice under Article 50.

As a matter of democratic politics it is astonishing that so many people should apparently regard it as legitimate to engage in activities designed to frustrate the expressed will of the British people. Sadly, this is a symptom of the serious damage which 40 years of membership has done to our sense of national cohesion. This damage can begin to heal once we leave."

Article 50 is to invoked under the member state's rules.

Is Parliament subject to the Prime Minister's will, or is the Prime Minister subject to Parliament's will?

mfesharne Sep 13th 2016 6:40 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
As I say: It's all nothing more than opinion & perhaps idle speculation........ We'll only actually know what'll happen when it happens.

Time will tell. :)

DaveLovesDee Sep 13th 2016 6:45 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12051293)
As I say: It's all nothing more than opinion & perhaps idle speculation........ We'll only actually know what'll happen when it happens.

Time will tell. :)

So you're saying that a report by a Lords Committee is an opinion.

Assanah Sep 13th 2016 7:01 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12051240)
We voted to leave a 'trading club'--Nobody "won".
David Cameron tried to get reforms and failed. How could the UK have got into the "drivers seat"? they are just one of 28 members!

Nationalism--how is wanting to trade more with the rest of the 'globe' instead of just Europe nationalism? What is wrong with a nation state having its own identity (and law system)? Should all the countries of Asia /Africa join together as large federal nations? Should Canada and USA join together as one country??
Why is wanting equal rules for all immigrants nationalism?

You are right regarding world affairs, Brexit is unimportant, however this is a thread about Brexit so posters are discussing it!
Start a thread on world poverty, and the relative poverty in countries such as the USA and UK.

The UK can already trade with the whole world. Other EU countries are doing that quiet successfully under free trade agreements or WTO rules. The EU is not preventing the UK to trade.

mfesharne Sep 13th 2016 7:03 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12051296)
So you're saying that a report by a Lords Committee is an opinion.

It has no legal standing whatsoever so yes I would say it's nothing more than an opinion & as it's from a source that wants to get involved but isn't sure it will be, I'd also say it's an extremely biased opinion. (But I never have been a fan of the vermin in ermine!)

The very best we can hope for is a degree of notice of what will happen but I'd say it's far more likely we won't know about it until after it's happened.

TM could very well & (IMO) probably will trigger A50 & then announce she's triggered it.

mfesharne Sep 13th 2016 7:23 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Further to my previous comment, let's remember the House of Lords Constitution Committee consists of just 12 members out of something in the region of 650+

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_Committee

EMR Sep 13th 2016 7:32 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12051258)
Companies keep on hiring as S&P says UK has ‘shaken off the Brexit blues’

"Companies intend to keep on hiring in the coming months, according to recruitment group Manpower, though optimism among employers has slowed in most sectors.

The jobs figures are the latest sign that the economy has been resilient despite companies’ fears following the EU referendum – analysts at credit ratings agency Standard & Poor’s said the UK has “shaken off the Brexit blues.”

Manpower’s optimism index now stands at 5pc, indicating that the number of companies increasing headcount outnumbers those which are cutting staff."

You should read todays reuters pages It reports the opposite. Cracks already showing in employers recruiting plans for the future.


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