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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

SultanOfSwing Sep 13th 2016 4:37 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12051180)
Of course, follow standard EU procedure, until they eventually get the result they want.

Maybe the EU did get the result they want. Maybe they don't want the UK anymore ...

Actually, being honest, the whole thing is kind of depressing. Here we had this organization, which was far from perfect, but had the potential to be reshaped into something worthwhile, especially if a country as powerful as the UK had put in more of an effort to get in the driver's seat, instead of leaving everything to the Germans to sort out and complaining when it didn't go they way they wanted.

Nationalism and its recent rise is bothering me. How many wars has the world been through because of out-of-control nationalism? How many people have suffered as a result? Yet here we are, still making the same mistakes time and again, while insurgents and terrorists take advantage of our divisive nature to attack. There is no place in the world for exceptionalism anymore, it is time to move on.

So yes, I'm disappointed in the result, and yes, it irritates me when puffed up nationalists put intangibles like 'patriotism' and the like ahead of real issues like poverty and climate change. This referendum was such a pointless exercise when all's said and done, a brexit won't fix anything, it won't make unemployment disappear, it won't make ISIS love us all and stop killing civilians, it won't feed, house and clothe all the kids in Syria and when the sea levels start to rise, it won't stop half of the UK from ending up underwater.

But, hey - you WON, right?

mfesharne Sep 13th 2016 4:40 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12051152)
I don't have to accept anything - I wasn't part of it, there is nothing for me to accept. Don't mean to be pedantic but the 'decision to leave' still rests with parliament. Referendums are merely advisory.

But this thread is still completely pointless because brexit, whatever the hell it is, hasn't happened yet. When it does, maybe in six months, maybe in five years, then the thread will be relevant. Until then, we might as well shitpost to pass the time.

I think that's rather a matter of unproven opinion & time will tell whether Parliament have any further say or not.

Here's one interesting opinion that I've posted previously:

Invoking Article 50: the Law, the Constitution and Politics

Lion in Winter Sep 13th 2016 4:41 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12051188)
Maybe the EU did get the result they want. Maybe they don't want the UK anymore ...

Actually, being honest, the whole thing is kind of depressing. Here we had this organization, which was far from perfect, but had the potential to be reshaped into something worthwhile, especially if a country as powerful as the UK had put in more of an effort to get in the driver's seat, instead of leaving everything to the Germans to sort out and complaining when it didn't go they way they wanted.

Nationalism and its recent rise is bothering me. How many wars has the world been through because of out-of-control nationalism? How many people have suffered as a result? Yet here we are, still making the same mistakes time and again, while insurgents and terrorists take advantage of our divisive nature to attack. There is no place in the world for exceptionalism anymore, it is time to move on.

So yes, I'm disappointed in the result, and yes, it irritates me when puffed up nationalists put intangibles like 'patriotism' and the like ahead of real issues like poverty and climate change. This referendum was such a pointless exercise when all's said and done, a brexit won't fix anything, it won't make unemployment disappear, it won't make ISIS love us all and stop killing civilians, it won't feed, house and clothe all the kids in Syria and when the sea levels start to rise, it won't stop half of the UK from ending up underwater.

But, hey - you WON, right?


Exactly right, expressed much better than I ever have.

SultanOfSwing Sep 13th 2016 4:42 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12051192)
I think that's rather a matter of unproven opinion & time will tell whether Parliament have any further say or not.

Here's one interesting opinion that I've posted previously:

Invoking Article 50: the Law, the Constitution and Politics

This thread is north of 95% unproven opinion, why change now?

amideislas Sep 13th 2016 4:46 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12051188)
Maybe the EU did get the result they want. Maybe they don't want the UK anymore ...

Actually, being honest, the whole thing is kind of depressing. Here we had this organization, which was far from perfect, but had the potential to be reshaped into something worthwhile, especially if a country as powerful as the UK had put in more of an effort to get in the driver's seat, instead of leaving everything to the Germans to sort out and complaining when it didn't go they way they wanted.

Nationalism and its recent rise is bothering me. How many wars has the world been through because of out-of-control nationalism? How many people have suffered as a result? Yet here we are, still making the same mistakes time and again, while insurgents and terrorists take advantage of our divisive nature to attack. There is no place in the world for exceptionalism anymore, it is time to move on.

So yes, I'm disappointed in the result, and yes, it irritates me when puffed up nationalists put intangibles like 'patriotism' and the like ahead of real issues like poverty and climate change. This referendum was such a pointless exercise when all's said and done, a brexit won't fix anything, it won't make unemployment disappear, it won't make ISIS love us all and stop killing civilians, it won't feed, house and clothe all the kids in Syria and when the sea levels start to rise, it won't stop half of the UK from ending up underwater.

But, hey - you WON, right?

+2

Not to mention it's going to be really expensive.

mfesharne Sep 13th 2016 4:47 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12051197)
This thread is north of 95% unproven opinion, why change now?

Logically, it has to be (pretty much) nothing more than unproven opinion because no-one can predict what would happen in the future whether the UK had left or remained.

Virtually the only absolute fact is that the referendum result was to leave.

SultanOfSwing Sep 13th 2016 4:52 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12051202)
+2

Not to mention it's going to be really expensive.

Especially if it ends up getting dragged out over a period of years.

Brexit, when it does happen, might not resemble what it was intended to be. Rather like a divorce, when you think of it.


Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12051204)
Logically, it has to be (pretty much) nothing more than unproven opinion because no-one can predict what would happen in the future whether the UK had left or remained.

Virtually the only absolute fact is that the referendum result was to leave.

Right, I was being facetious about it but it just illustrates how pointless it is discussing post-Brexit in a pre-Brexit situation.

amideislas Sep 13th 2016 4:53 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
There's a certain value in being pragmatic.

You take your car to the garage to fix a broken tail light, and they replace the engine. The tail light still isn't fixed, but hey, you got a new engine. And it works just the same as the last one!

£8000 please.

la mancha Sep 13th 2016 5:03 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12051069)
I don't know where you get your numbers and data. It sounds pretty fishy though. I read stuff like that in the sun and daily mail/express but I don't find much of that elsewhere.

I haven't bothered to even confirm if what you posted was true or in context. The vast majority of agriculture products are sold in Europe. The UK is a mere fraction of that. And what the UK doesn't buy (and why would it stop?) Germany or Holland or any other EU member will.

I see no signs of poverty here. None. I'm sure it exists somewhere, but if it's so impoverished, I'd have to think it would be visible at least. It's not. End of. In fact, the standard of living is quite impressive. All over. Not just in my neighbourhood.

Magaluf is

I go to great lengths to only post credible stuff from credible mainstream media. Prove me a liar. I dare you.

Majorca's exporters greatly concerned at Brexit prospect » Balearics » News » Majorca Daily Bulletin

The Last Number to Call - All about Mallorca

Balearic poverty risk falls more than elsewhere in Spain » Balearics » News » Majorca Daily Bulletin

A rich island but with much poverty » Opinion » Comment » Majorca Daily Bulletin

Quote: ‘I see no signs of poverty here. None. I'm sure it exists somewhere, but if it's so impoverished, I'd have to think it would be visible at least. It's not. End of. In fact, the standard of living is quite impressive. All over. Not just in my neighbourhood.’

I don’t suppose you frequent the Plaza Espana, home to one of the biggest soup kitchens on the island. If you happen to walk past one morning you will see the long queue of those unemployed and at risk of social exclusion queuing for food parcels.

Nothing to do with the thread directly but I mention them because, firstly, you live there but tell me you do not see it, and secondly, with Mallorcan businesses worried over their exports to the UK should we be excluded from the single market, unemployment will not improve in the short term on the island. Will it.

By the way, I do not care about Magaluf, got that?

And credible stuff? I suppose you mean those un-named European Commissioners.

mfesharne Sep 13th 2016 5:09 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12051205)
Especially if it ends up getting dragged out over a period of years.

Brexit, when it does happen, might not resemble what it was intended to be. Rather like a divorce, when you think of it.



Right, I was being facetious about it but it just illustrates how pointless it is discussing post-Brexit in a pre-Brexit situation.

If you feel that way why continue to take part in the discussion?

As I see it, people (quite rightly) voted as per the question on the ballot form which was leave or remain not leave/remain under certain stipulated preconditions.

Therefore everyone needs to accept Brexit will happen & at the same time, hope for a fair & equitable exit deal....... but bearing in mind any & all deals would be reciprocal, I don't see any major problems with that.

Then we have the issue of what will happen to UK law after Brexit which is another matter entirely & I'm sure will take years to complete but I have no doubt many things will eventually be changed through Parliamentary, democratic process........ and maybe, even by a number of referendums.

SultanOfSwing Sep 13th 2016 5:20 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12051213)
If you feel that way why continue to take part in the discussion?

Because there are matters peripheral to Brexit that are worth discussing, and you'd be bored if I wasn't here anyway.


Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12051213)
As I see it, people (quite rightly) voted as per the question on the ballot form which was leave or remain not leave/remain under certain stipulated preconditions.

Therefore everyone needs to accept Brexit will happen & at the same time, hope for a fair & equitable exit deal....... but bearing in mind any & all deals would be reciprocal, I don't see any major problems with that.

Then we have the issue of what will happen to UK law after Brexit which is another matter entirely & I'm sure will take years to complete but I have no doubt many things will eventually be changed through Parliamentary, democratic process........ and maybe, even by a number of referendums.

Yes, the referendum went in favour of leaving the EU, we get it, it is what it is.

Do all deals have to be reciprocal, though? Is there really anything to stop the EU throwing up two fingers and giving the UK the shitty end of the stick?

UK law is UK law, what happens there is, as you say, down to Parliament and it isn't really a concern here, that will get taken care of in time.

The main point is that Brexit won't really 'fix' anything. The UK will still have issues with overcrowding, inner city crime, benefit fraud, etc. Except now, any existing and potential future benefits of EU membership (and hyperbole aside, there had to be benefits to joining, or it never would have happened in the first place) will now be off the table.

Or, the UK ends up with some kind of EU-Lite, with things like free movement being still in place, just without the ability to participate in the decision making process. At which point, Brexit will have been a complete waste of time and money.

amideislas Sep 13th 2016 5:26 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12051211)
Majorca's exporters greatly concerned at Brexit prospect » Balearics » News » Majorca Daily Bulletin

The Last Number to Call - All about Mallorca

Balearic poverty risk falls more than elsewhere in Spain » Balearics » News » Majorca Daily Bulletin

A rich island but with much poverty » Opinion » Comment » Majorca Daily Bulletin

Quote: ‘I see no signs of poverty here. None. I'm sure it exists somewhere, but if it's so impoverished, I'd have to think it would be visible at least. It's not. End of. In fact, the standard of living is quite impressive. All over. Not just in my neighbourhood.’

I don’t suppose you frequent the Plaza Espana, home to one of the biggest soup kitchens on the island. If you happen to walk past one morning you will see the long queue of those unemployed and at risk of social exclusion queuing for food parcels.

Nothing to do with the thread directly but I mention them because, firstly, you live there but tell me you do not see it, and secondly, with Mallorcan businesses worried over their exports to the UK should we be excluded from the single market, unemployment will not improve in the short term on the island. Will it.

By the way, I do not care about Malaguf, got that?

And credible stuff? I suppose you mean those un-named European Commissioners.

Yeah, I spend a lot of time at Plaça d'Espanya. Haven't seen a soup kitchen, but I'll take your word for it. It's a pretty busy place, lots of posh boutique shops, restaurants etc.. Have you been there?

Oh, by the way, the MDB is the equivalent of the daily express. Virtually every story is sensational, "fury over pigeons in palm trees!" (In 180 point typefaces).

I don't know. I don't see much poverty here (do you?). What I have seen is a transformation from a backward, impoverished place to a great combination of old world and modernism living in harmony, with latest infrastructure, and access to anything. A completely different place that even a decade ago. I don't know where you get this stuff. I travel to the UK often, and my first impression is how much lower standard people seem to live. And it's expensive! Really.

I also live amongst the "natives". You know, those impoverished foreigners that you speak of? Well, I can tell you that brexit is the furthest thing from their minds. If anyone comments, they just shrug and say "it's their problem". I don't know any local (Mallorquin) who's visibly struggling, and I don't live anywhere posh at all. True, my neighbour's daughter doesn't live here, she lives in New York City, going to university there. I think you've been led to believe exaggerated rhetoric.

Lastly, again (for the zillionth time), why on earth would Britain stop buying European products? That would be a disaster. They'd have to establish all new supply chains from afar (at a premium). I can understand if some European suppliers might not understand this reality, but explain that please.

Again, prove that I post (what did you call it? "Fringe" or something like that) wacko media. Or else, as I've said before to those making equally ridiculous claims, STFU.

mfesharne Sep 13th 2016 5:31 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
At the risk of msquoting: Brexit itself wasn't meant to "fix anything"........ Brexit was to Brexit which would then allow an independent UK to address issues without interference & that'll probably take many years....... but at least it can be done on it's own terms.

Will agreements be reciprocal? - I can't see into the future (just like everyone else) but as I see it, they'll have to be.

Sure there may be some give on one subject & take on another but I think it logical to expect pretty much reciprocity overall.

But even f it's not, the people voted for Brexit not for Brexit with conditions so Brexit it must be.

SultanOfSwing Sep 13th 2016 5:40 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12051228)
At the risk of msquoting: Brexit itself wasn't meant to "fix anything"........ Brexit was to Brexit which would then allow an independent UK to address issues without interference & that'll probably take many years....... but at least it can be done on it's own terms.

That wasn't so much related to your post as it was the wider issue, where there were implications (paraphrasing) that the UK's problems were caused by the EU and that leaving was the solution.

You and I both know that was bollocks, but maybe some of the people who voted leave really believed that.


Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12051228)
Will agreements be reciprocal? - I can't see into the future (just like everyone else) but as I see it, they'll have to be.

Sure there may be some give on one subject & take on another but I think it logical to expect pretty much reciprocity overall.

But even f it's not, the people voted for Brexit not for Brexit with conditions so Brexit it must be.

I don't know if there is any precedent for any post-Brexit agreements to be reciprocal, but then again, without knowing exactly what those agreements even are, it's impossible to say whether there is a need for it anyway.

DaveLovesDee Sep 13th 2016 5:43 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12051192)
I think that's rather a matter of unproven opinion & time will tell whether Parliament have any further say or not.

Here's one interesting opinion that I've posted previously:

Invoking Article 50: the Law, the Constitution and Politics

I posted this earlier today. Parliament should 'play a central role' in triggering Article 50


The House of Lords Constitution Committee today publishes a report, The invoking of Article 50, in which it states that Government should not trigger Article 50 without consulting Parliament. The Committee says it would be 'constitutionally inappropriate' and would set 'a disturbing precedent' for the Government to act on the referendum without explicit parliamentary approval.


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