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Post EU Referendum

Post EU Referendum

Old Mar 24th 2018, 3:13 pm
  #31651  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
I am interested in someone explaining to me how it is that EU workers bring down wages.
My thinking is : they don't earn much so must be on minimum wage.
How can they bring down minimum wage. I just don't see the logic.

This min wage is set by the Government as are the benefits.
The story is that Brits don't want to do the EU people jobs because they find the wages too low.
My thinking here is : Benefits must pay better than min wage, otherwise they would take the job.
Does the Government pay too much benefit ?

And now you throw in the illegals working below min wage.
I do realize any country has illegal workers and bosses taking advantage, but surely we're talking exceptions here and NOT the rule.

Here I am, confused.com ...
Some EU countries have a lower standard of living than others so a job in the UK that pays minimum wage is attractive to someone from, say, Bulgaria. That legal UK immigrant takes such a job, finds cheap and basic accommodation and earns enough to send money home. If they have children back home they can receive benefits such as family allowance.
The greater the number of legal EU immigrants that want to do this then the greater the number of jobs that can be filled at minimum wage regardless of what that job would have had to pay to attract a UK worker.
UK unemployment is low compared to some other EU countries and, in the normal course of events, this would have driven up wages. However, the arrival of many willing EU workers created a short circuit in the normal supply/demand process and wages, especially in the unskilled sector, remained low. Remember that many of those EU workers from the newly joined nations had nowhere else to go because other EU countries, where they could have found work, exercised their right to delay full freedom of movement.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 3:29 pm
  #31652  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Golden Years View Post
Some EU countries have a lower standard of living than others so a job in the UK that pays minimum wage is attractive to someone from, say, Bulgaria. That legal UK immigrant takes such a job, finds cheap and basic accommodation and earns enough to send money home. If they have children back home they can receive benefits such as family allowance.
The greater the number of legal EU immigrants that want to do this then the greater the number of jobs that can be filled at minimum wage regardless of what that job would have had to pay to attract a UK worker.
UK unemployment is low compared to some other EU countries and, in the normal course of events, this would have driven up wages. However, the arrival of many willing EU workers created a short circuit in the normal supply/demand process and wages, especially in the unskilled sector, remained low. Remember that many of those EU workers from the newly joined nations had nowhere else to go because other EU countries, where they could have found work, exercised their right to delay full freedom of movement.
One of the biggest growth sectors in the UK economy are the service and distribution sectors.
New start ups.
These traditionally have always been at the lower end of the pay league.

The counter argument to yours is would the UK economy have grown, the millions of new jobs created but for the availability of labour.
It was and is government policy to encourage those out of work to re enter the job market by topping up low pay with benefits.
Better to pay a % in benefits than a 100% in benefits.
What evidence us there that vacancies in areas which traditionally paid higher wages have matched the low paid sectors.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 3:33 pm
  #31653  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Golden Years View Post
Some EU countries have a lower standard of living than others so a job in the UK that pays minimum wage is attractive to someone from, say, Bulgaria. That legal UK immigrant takes such a job, finds cheap and basic accommodation and earns enough to send money home. If they have children back home they can receive benefits such as family allowance.
The greater the number of legal EU immigrants that want to do this then the greater the number of jobs that can be filled at minimum wage regardless of what that job would have had to pay to attract a UK worker.
UK unemployment is low compared to some other EU countries and, in the normal course of events, this would have driven up wages. However, the arrival of many willing EU workers created a short circuit in the normal supply/demand process and wages, especially in the unskilled sector, remained low. Remember that many of those EU workers from the newly joined nations had nowhere else to go because other EU countries, where they could have found work, exercised their right to delay full freedom of movement.
Thanks for that, nice to see some sense here !

Right, so jobs that might have paid more than the min, are now paid the min because of over supply of EU workers. There I can see the problem, even though a carrot picker will never get more than minimum. Low skilled jobs will rarely go beyond the minimum.
Is the min wage in the UK too low or is benefits payment too high ?
I think it is the first which is the problem.

Do you believe that, once this flow of EU workers is stopped, the Brits will start doing these low skilled jobs ? I know some on here say that the UK can import these things and shut down farms in the UK, but frankly I see more problems than solutions that way.
I can not imagine the UK workers picking up toilet brushes and start doing these jobs. Say what you want, but one needs a certain ''shut brain down'' skill to do these jobs and I don't think Brits have this ability.

It all seems a bit of a never ending circle .... And it won't be solved after Brexit .....
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 3:36 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
One of the biggest growth sectors in the UK economy are the service and distribution sectors.
New start ups.
These traditionally have always been at the lower end of the pay league.

The counter argument to yours is would the UK economy have grown, the millions of new jobs created but for the availability of labour.
It was and is government policy to encourage those out of work to re enter the job market by topping up low pay with benefits.
Better to pay a % in benefits than a 100% in benefits.
What evidence us there that vacancies in areas which traditionally paid higher wages have matched the low paid sectors.
Never knew that ....
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 4:02 pm
  #31655  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
I think you are mixing up workers now.
We were NOT talking 15 £/hour jobs.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you once mentioned that EU immigrants (most of them) are low paid low skilled workers.
They pick carrots, make beds, clean toilets, etc ... and by doing that you claim that they suppress wages (full stop) ???
You can say what you want but these sort of jobs ARE paid min wage whether it's a Brit or a Pool doing it. And this Pool does NOT suppress min wage.

Now, my 2nd question : Why do Brits not do these jobs so the Pools don't have to come and sort it out for you ?
Claiming that they prefer their own bedroom is a bit weird. Min wage should be enough to survive life in the UK, I hope. Is this not the case ?

And lastly, this dream that employees set the wages ... This only works in very high paid jobs. Not for the toilet cleaner.
I'll try once more. The person on the £7.50 min wage has their wage suppressed because it would have drifted upwards due to inflationary pressure if there was a better balance between labour and capital.

The very fact of a hugely expanded labour supply can do nothing else but suppress wages regardless.

FYI the average wage for an EU8 or EU2 worker is £8.33/hr.

I assume your "Pool" is a Polish person?

Brits don't do the jobs because the low pay does not pay enough for a decent living or they are living the life of Riley on bennies or doubtless many other reasons. Many of these jobs are of no value to the UK and do not add anything to society, in fact they subtract from society via the payment of in-work bennies.

Min wage is enough to survive, but not to have a comfortable life.

The employee sets the wage by accepting the job.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 4:04 pm
  #31656  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
So effective you're trying to suppress wages until you set a rate which the employee will agree to.

That rate will be similar to what your competitors pay.
Yes, and the availability of an expanded reserve pool of labour enables that wage suppression by providing millions of keen yet impoverished workers who will underhouse themselves to come to the UK to work.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 4:06 pm
  #31657  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
One of the biggest growth sectors in the UK economy are the service and distribution sectors.
New start ups.
These traditionally have always been at the lower end of the pay league.

The counter argument to yours is would the UK economy have grown, the millions of new jobs created but for the availability of labour.
It was and is government policy to encourage those out of work to re enter the job market by topping up low pay with benefits.
Better to pay a % in benefits than a 100% in benefits.
What evidence us there that vacancies in areas which traditionally paid higher wages have matched the low paid sectors.
This is indeed the philosophy behind working tax credits etc and is not a bad concept, except when you have open immigration - then you have government paying a % in benefits when otherwise it would have been zero in bennies to the Bulgarian.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 4:07 pm
  #31658  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
I'll try once more. The person on the £7.50 min wage has their wage suppressed because it would have drifted upwards due to inflationary pressure if there was a better balance between labour and capital.

The very fact of a hugely expanded labour supply can do nothing else but suppress wages regardless.

FYI the average wage for an EU8 or EU2 worker is £8.33/hr.

I assume your "Pool" is a Polish person?

Brits don't do the jobs because the low pay does not pay enough for a decent living or they are living the life of Riley on bennies or doubtless many other reasons. Many of these jobs are of no value to the UK and do not add anything to society, in fact they subtract from society via the payment of in-work bennies.

Min wage is enough to survive, but not to have a comfortable life.

The employee sets the wage by accepting the job.
The person on min wage is only on it because of government intervention.
You have no evidence to suggest that the current min wage level would be higher if
It did not exist and wages had been left to the market, to the employer.
Employers continue to break the law by underlying but of course in your world that's the employees fault in your Victorian employer mindset.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 4:11 pm
  #31659  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
Thanks for that, nice to see some sense here !

Right, so jobs that might have paid more than the min, are now paid the min because of over supply of EU workers. There I can see the problem, even though a carrot picker will never get more than minimum. Low skilled jobs will rarely go beyond the minimum.
Is the min wage in the UK too low or is benefits payment too high ?
I think it is the first which is the problem.

Do you believe that, once this flow of EU workers is stopped, the Brits will start doing these low skilled jobs ? I know some on here say that the UK can import these things and shut down farms in the UK, but frankly I see more problems than solutions that way.
I can not imagine the UK workers picking up toilet brushes and start doing these jobs. Say what you want, but one needs a certain ''shut brain down'' skill to do these jobs and I don't think Brits have this ability.

It all seems a bit of a never ending circle .... And it won't be solved after Brexit .....
I'm pleased that Golden has managed to explain it to you.

If the UK increased the minimum wage it would just attract more migration.

The farms will not shut down, they will either mechanise more or product-substitute to less labour intensive crops.

Brits will do the jobs once the reward is sufficient or bennies drop or both.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 4:12 pm
  #31660  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
The person on min wage is only on it because of government intervention.
You have no evidence to suggest that the current min wage level would be higher if
It did not exist
and wages had been left to the market, to the employer.
Employers continue to break the law by underlying but of course in your world that's the employees fault in your Victorian employer mindset.
I didn't say that - another EMR strawman.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 4:14 pm
  #31661  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Yes, and the availability of an expanded reserve pool of labour enables that wage suppression by providing millions of keen yet impoverished workers who will underhouse themselves to come to the UK to work.
And keep landlords like you in business.
Keep the large builders going as a visit to any city centre proves.
Providing thousands of jobs not just in construction but in every other sector of the economy that services construction of flats and houses.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 4:23 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
And keep landlords like you in business.
Keep the large builders going as a visit to any city centre proves.
Providing thousands of jobs not just in construction but in every other sector of the economy that services construction of flats and houses.
Yes, it does benefit landlords. Mass immigration partly enabled by FOM within the EU enriches landlords - it's nice of you support that.

The construction companies are employing migrants to build houses because we have a population surge, due to migration. If we had not imported millions of fecund migrants we would not be needing to build millions of properties.

Continuing with this out of balance migration policy helps ensure an accommodation shortfall and high rents/prices going forwards.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 4:31 pm
  #31663  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Yes, it does benefit landlords. Mass immigration partly enabled by FOM within the EU enriches landlords - it's nice of you support that.

The construction companies are employing migrants to build houses because we have a population surge, due to migration. If we had not imported millions of fecund migrants we would not be needing to build millions of properties.

Continuing with this out of balance migration policy helps ensure an accommodation shortfall and high rents/prices going forwards.
Strange how you do not apply your peculiar theory of wages to the exploitation of the rental market by landlords like yourself.
Better of course to have even fewer homes being built by the private sector, thousands more unemployed just to suit your anti migrant views.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 6:29 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
He is living in his own little bubble, believing whatever suits him.
I have been asking this question for a while and never get an answer.

I do believe that less employees will push wages up (with the risk of companies having to close down) but having a choice of employees does NOT bring down the minimum wage.
IT CAN'T ...
I also asked why Brits don't do these jobs and there NO ANSWER yet again.
It's time our so called ''Remainer'' explains his thinking (or lack of).
Very well to sit on a high horse looking down at people, but a bit of logical normal conversation every now and then would be nice.
Absolutely right Annetje.
Additionally, by paying as close to, or only the minimum wage, employers not only depress wages but;-
- Skimp on quality & standards formerly offered, and restrict new innovation.
- Force employees into claiming tax credits – obliging the taxpayer to indirectly subsidise the employer’s business.
- Discourage/ deter new entrant competitors into the marketplace, so practising the dual strategy of artificially restricted access & maintenance of an unrealistic market share.
A final point; - as a result of this decade’s low interest rates, many so called 'companies' are in reality no more than trading shells or ‘zombie firms’ that will fail when interest rates cause operating costs to spiral against low or near non-existent turnover.
It comes to this - employers who only pay the minimum wage or near it, in reality, don't own a functioning business.

I see he's using Latin again.....
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 6:33 pm
  #31665  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by 007Steve View Post

I see he's using Latin again.....
What?.. That's a foren langige, innit?
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