Go Back  British Expats > General > Take it Outside!
Reload this Page >

Post EU Referendum

Post EU Referendum

Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:04 pm
  #26896  
FreeThinker
 
jimenato's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: the moors and levels
Posts: 9,280
jimenato has a reputation beyond reputejimenato has a reputation beyond reputejimenato has a reputation beyond reputejimenato has a reputation beyond reputejimenato has a reputation beyond reputejimenato has a reputation beyond reputejimenato has a reputation beyond reputejimenato has a reputation beyond reputejimenato has a reputation beyond reputejimenato has a reputation beyond reputejimenato has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Can anyone on either side explain this one to me?
BREXIT They voted leave to leave the nasty EU and take control back of its borders and curb immigration and didn't like being dictated to by the EU and some of their silly rules.
REMAIN They voted to stay. They like the idea of being a 28 country powerhouse when it comes to trade. They enjoy the freedom Of Movement and are not anti immigration.

So is the Le Touquet agreement a part of why some people may have voted leave? The Le Touquet deal was signed by Tony Blair and French counterpart President Jacques Chirac in 2003, signed the historic document that revolutionised border controls in Channel ports.

So allegedly Macron wants the UK to pay more money and accept more migrants. France will do everything to help refugees but 'can't take in economic migrants'.

I have often wondered how many camps like the Calais Jungle camp were seen in places like Dover, Harwich, Felixstowe or Hull. I tend to guess the UK Border Force on the French side are busier than their French counterparts on the UK side.

Sensible answers on the back of a postage stamp please.
To answer the (only) question in the above...

So is the Le Touquet agreement a part of why some people may have voted leave?
Yes - almost certainly. But like many reasons people had for voting leave, it has nothing to do with the EU.
jimenato is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:12 pm
  #26897  
EMR
Banned
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
EMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
I agree with you however it's a problem that largely started with Labour. The last Labour government simply chucked benefit money at people to keep them out of the way. A lot of those people probably weren't interested in improving their lot in life and it was far easier for Labour to just throw £100 a week at them rather than face the difficulties of forcing them into education, training or work.

The current Conservative government are facing criticism for not following that model even though that model in itself has very negative effects on social mobility. Britain is the only country that I now of where, at least at one point, kids over the age of 16/18 have basically been paid a salary by the government to attend college.
People have always had children some had large families..

The payment to those attending college does fiddle the figures for youth unemployment but also is an incentive for some to continue in further education and be better qualified for the job market..
You are not old enough to remember the time when we had a vibrant manufacturing and construction industry when apprentaships were one of the normal routes into full employment.
For my generation it was not could I find a job but which one did I want to take.
EMR is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:18 pm
  #26898  
Sidecar Falcon
 
DigitalGhost's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,076
DigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
To answer the (only) question in the above...



Yes - almost certainly. But like many reasons people had for voting leave, it has nothing to do with the EU.
I disagree, I don't think it's the agreement itself. I think it's the absolute and total shit show that France has made out of this entire situation.

For the UKBA to process and hand people back to the French authorities only for the French to them dump them back out onto the street 1 mile up the road is simply ludicrous. Their outsourcing most of the security over to heavy handed private sector firms hasn't helped matters much either.
DigitalGhost is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:20 pm
  #26899  
Sidecar Falcon
 
DigitalGhost's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,076
DigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
People have always had children some had large families..

The payment to those attending college does fiddle the figures for youth unemployment but also is an incentive for some to continue in further education and be better qualified for the job market..
You are not old enough to remember the time when we had a vibrant manufacturing and construction industry when apprentaships were one of the normal routes into full employment.
For my generation it was not could I find a job but which one did I want to take.
I agree but I personally knew people who fiddled the hell out of that system and I doubt those were isolated incidents.

In other countries though kids dream of going to college and making a life for themselves. In some cases they even save for years or slog away in minimum wage part-time jobs so they can afford the tuition. It says a lot when British youths will only attend further education when you pay them to do it.
DigitalGhost is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:27 pm
  #26900  
So long...
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 22,032
DaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
It's not the worst plan tbh. Poverty has a habit of breeding further generations of poverty in this country and in some cities it isn't uncommon to find a family where nobody has ever worked.
And what happens when the unemployed person gets a job? Does the sterilisation process get reversed?

A potentially-permanent medical procedure for what for most is temporary unemployment is a bit overkill, isn't it? And will these procedures be done on the NHS, and will there be an increase in funding for this?

There are campaigns against female genital mutilation, yet a forced procedure on male genitals without the person's consent you see no problem with. It's funny how those who something like this rarely affects supports these things, and if you or anyone else ever suggests this is a good idea, we'll find of how happy you'd be to have a forced medical procedure without consent.

Generations of families who've never worked is rarer than you think. 40-60 years ago, there were more full-time jobs in factories for unskilled workers at decent pay than we have now, where many jobs are short hours/part-time and minimum wage. Back then, there was also no tax credits to top your wages up, and no need for both parents to work. We didn't need the latest TV, computer and games systems, and didn't have washing machines and tumble dryers.

There are few apprenticeships as well these days, and many college courses have little employment value. I'm definitely not suggesting that these courses end, but maybe they should be in addition to another course with value in the employment market.
DaveLovesDee is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:28 pm
  #26901  
EMR
Banned
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
EMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
I agree but I personally knew people who fiddled the hell out of that system and I doubt those were isolated incidents.

In other countries though kids dream of going to college and making a life for themselves. In some cases they even save for years or slog away in minimum wage part-time jobs so they can afford the tuition. It says a lot when British youths will only attend further education when you pay them to do it.
It's hardly a fortune , you probably spend more every Saturday night.
Any system will be fiddled, SO suspect that the total amount of benefit fiddles dies not even come close to tax avoidance and tax evasion rom those who also manipulate tge system..

But there is a lack of ambition among many of the young and equally a sense of entitlement from just as many.
EMR is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:28 pm
  #26902  
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: City of Broad Shoulders
Posts: 58,066
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
I agree but I personally knew people who fiddled the hell out of that system and I doubt those were isolated incidents.

In other countries though kids dream of going to college and making a life for themselves. In some cases they even save for years or slog away in minimum wage part-time jobs so they can afford the tuition. It says a lot when British youths will only attend further education when you pay them to do it.
Complete nonsense.

a. There are more people going to university in the UK than ever before, excrpt for a dip this year, so your last statement is simply false.

b. Education is a public good. Explain the advantage of rationing it, along with the advantages of starting life with crushing debt.

c. In other countries - other than the US - university education is subsidized or free.And they seem to be doing just fine. Some of thrm are even in the EU.....

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Jan 17th 2018 at 12:31 pm.
Lion in Winter is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:33 pm
  #26903  
Sidecar Falcon
 
DigitalGhost's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,076
DigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Complete nonsense.

a. There are more people going to university in the UK than ever before, so your last statement is simply false.

b. Education is a public good. Explain the advantage of rationing it, along with the advantages of starting life with crushing debt.

c. In other countries - other than the US - university education is subsidized or free.And they seem to be doing just fine. Some of thrm are even in the EU.....
The EMA system funded college study, not university. University subsidies and loans were separate to that and also a lot has changed in how tuition fees are charged in the UK and how much tuition costs since then.

I agree with you, education is in the public good although I don't agree that it should be free. I think subsidised tuition is the best way as it gives people an incentive to choose their course sensibly and stick with it once they've chosen it.

I think charging today's domestic students £10k a year and rising is ridiculous though especially since most students pay for it using loans that will probably never be paid back and universities piss an awful lot of that money away anyway.
DigitalGhost is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:37 pm
  #26904  
Sidecar Falcon
 
DigitalGhost's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,076
DigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
And what happens when the unemployed person gets a job? Does the sterilisation process get reversed?

A potentially-permanent medical procedure for what for most is temporary unemployment is a bit overkill, isn't it? And will these procedures be done on the NHS, and will there be an increase in funding for this?
Oh absolutely, I agree with you. To suggest that anybody should be forced to undergo this against their will or face the proposition of it after a short term of unemployment is crazy. The former would be a violation of their human rights anyway.

I just think there would be any harm in suggesting or encouraging it when you're dealing with a mother or father of 5 who has never worked, comes from a lineage of those who have never worked and has absolutely no interest in their own future prospects.
DigitalGhost is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:40 pm
  #26905  
So long...
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 22,032
DaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond reputeDaveLovesDee has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
I disagree, I don't think it's the agreement itself. I think it's the absolute and total shit show that France has made out of this entire situation.
Really! It's easier to prevent unwanted people from entering the UK from France on French soil than it is to return them once they arrive at a UK port.

For the UKBA to process and hand people back to the French authorities only for the French to them dump them back out onto the street 1 mile up the road is simply ludicrous. Their outsourcing most of the security over to heavy handed private sector firms hasn't helped matters much either.
It's France, they do what they want, and it's their country. Legally, France are supposed to send them back to whichever country they entered France from, or their country of origin. The French government is unwilling to spentd the time and money to do that, and the migrants aren't trying to stay in France, so the French Police tolerate them until the manage to leave.

I understand your sources of information are limited, but your arguments would be a little more credible if you were accurate. UKBA (UK Border Agency) hasn't been called that since 2013, when it was re-named UK Visas and Immigration (UKVI). Details matter.
DaveLovesDee is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:50 pm
  #26906  
Sidecar Falcon
 
DigitalGhost's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,076
DigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Really! It's easier to prevent unwanted people from entering the UK from France on French soil than it is to return them once they arrive at a UK port.
No that's what I meant, I agree with you. Without Le Touquet the situation would likely be much worse.

I have no doubt regarding the accuracy of your summary regarding how France has treated this situation and it honestly sounds like just another EU member state happily screwing another one over when the alternative solution is far more difficult or expensive for themselves.
DigitalGhost is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:56 pm
  #26907  
EMR
Banned
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
EMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
No that's what I meant, I agree with you. Without Le Touquet the situation would likely be much worse.

I have no doubt regarding the accuracy of your summary regarding how France has treated this situation and it honestly sounds like just another EU member state happily screwing another one over when the alternative solution is far more difficult or expensive for themselves.
How is France screwing the UK over when it is France that has to deal with the problems caused by those waiting and trying to get to the UK..
EMR is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:58 pm
  #26908  
Sidecar Falcon
 
DigitalGhost's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,076
DigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
How is France screwing the UK over when it is France that has to deal with the problems caused by those waiting and trying to get to the UK..
Because France really should be taking measures to prevent these people from illegally entering their territory and detaining and deporting those who do.

Try to imagine this scenario in reverse. If Portsmouth and Dover had become feral territories full of people trying to smuggle themselves from the UK into France and the UK authorities were just releasing those who were caught back onto the streets to retry their luck until they either succeeded, quit and went home or decided to file refugee claims in the UK. You likely won't be able to imagine it because the British would never allow a situation like that to exist.

Last edited by DigitalGhost; Jan 17th 2018 at 1:00 pm.
DigitalGhost is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 12:58 pm
  #26909  
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: City of Broad Shoulders
Posts: 58,066
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
The EMA system funded college study, not university. University subsidies and loans were separate to that and also a lot has changed in how tuition fees are charged in the UK and how much tuition costs since then.

I agree with you, education is in the public good although I don't agree that it should be free. I think subsidised tuition is the best way as it gives people an incentive to choose their course sensibly and stick with it once they've chosen it.

I think charging today's domestic students £10k a year and rising is ridiculous though especially since most students pay for it using loans that will probably never be paid back and universities piss an awful lot of that money away anyway.
This is a complete non sequitur from your previous post.

I am aware of how UK university education is funded. I am about to start paying for my son's in September and will likely be working past retirement age to help him pay for it since I don't believe in saddling the young with debt. He will pay some, I will pay some. I hope that gives you the neocon warm and fuzzies.I am at a loss to see the benefits. I grew up not as a child of Thatcher, but when higher education was seen as a national investment.
Lion in Winter is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2018, 1:03 pm
  #26910  
Sidecar Falcon
 
DigitalGhost's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,076
DigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond reputeDigitalGhost has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
This is a complete non sequitur from your previous post.

I am aware of how UK university education is funded. I am about to start paying for my son's in September and will likely be working past retirement age to help him pay for it since I don't believe in saddling the young with debt. He will pay some, I will pay some. I hope that gives you the neocon warm and fuzzies.I am at a loss to see the benefits. I grew up not as a child of Thatcher, but when higher education was seen as a national investment.
I'm no neocon, I assure. I have no problem with gay marriage, abortion or any of the other non-issues that seem so objectionable to the right in your adopted homeland. I just have different views on immigration and socialist policy to you, that's all.
DigitalGhost is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.