British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Former Lancastrian Dec 17th 2017 3:28 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by LouisB (Post 12401072)

Hopefully going forward, the next time this sort of question comes up, people will sit up, get informed and make wise choices.

I hope I’m not dreaming, but things are changing, the tide is turning.

The UK has only had 3 national Referendum votes 1975, 2011 and 2016 so its not a common occurrence.
The concept of a referendum was widely seen in British politics as "unconstitutional" and an "alien device".
Two of these referendums were held on the issue of the United Kingdom's relationship with Europe.
The 2011 AV referendum on the proposal to use the alternative vote system in parliamentary elections is the only UK-wide referendum that has been held on a domestic issue.

Would you trust the voters with another referendum based on previous experiences?

Novocastrian Dec 17th 2017 4:08 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12401075)
The UK has only had 3 national Referendum votes 1975, 2011 and 2016 so its not a common occurrence.
The concept of a referendum was widely seen in British politics as "unconstitutional" and an "alien device".
Two of these referendums were held on the issue of the United Kingdom's relationship with Europe.
The 2011 AV referendum on the proposal to use the alternative vote system in parliamentary elections is the only UK-wide referendum that has been held on a domestic issue.

Would you trust the voters with another referendum based on previous experiences?

I think that should be, would you trust the Tory nutters and the gutter press to present a reasoned argument concerning whatever the question might be?

Nope.

InVinoVeritas Dec 17th 2017 4:16 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12400976)
I have no idea why Corbyn keeps her on apart from what's in her knickers.

Really?

Novocastrian Dec 17th 2017 4:42 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Vexcore (Post 12400997)
The Westminster elite, who know best, who understand it all, who ignore the will of the people. This is becoming a stitch up. Is there no one with the will, with the fight and with the heart of a democratic voice who can unravel this knitted vail of deceit. For a subject that engulfed the country in real debate it is so one sided and overwhelming with the silent majority silent. I am now in favour of seeing *treason/may* rightly removed from office.

Funniest. Post. Evah!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

la mancha Dec 17th 2017 4:46 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
So much negativity for an event that has yet to happen. You people say you want to see a Brexit that is best for the UK and the British people, well, the UK apart, which has/is/will always do well, the British people have been lied to and sold out to the EU project and now they are saying they have had enough. What is it about this you do not understand? Some here ask in what way will, for example, traditional Labour supporters who voted to leave benefit from leaving the EU. The answer is what has belonging to the EU done for them the past forty years? Four recessions and two financial crises and now low wages and unaffordable housing due to a deluge in the number of member state citizens flooding into the UK (something we can thank Labour for) because their home nations cannot look after them.

Four out of the top five nations in the developed world with the highest rate of unemployment are in the EU. What are they doing about it that shows tangible numerical results? Nothing. Why? Maybe because the UK will help them out by taking in all their unskilled labour, thus lessening the home burden. We make it too easy for them. Maybe the UK leaving will be a wake-up call to every member state to get off their backsides and do something to create home employment.

amideislas Dec 17th 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12401102)
So much negativity for an event that has yet to happen. You people say you want to see a Brexit that is best for the UK and the British people, well, the UK apart, which has/is/will always do well, the British people have been lied to and sold out to the EU project and now they are saying they have had enough. What is it about this you do not understand? Some here ask in what way will, for example, traditional Labour supporters who voted to leave benefit from leaving the EU. The answer is what has belonging to the EU done for them the past forty years? Four recessions and two financial crises and now low wages and unaffordable housing due to a deluge in the number of member state citizens flooding into the UK (something we can thank Labour for) because their home nations cannot look after them.

Four out of the top five nations in the developed world with the highest rate of unemployment are in the EU. What are they doing about it that shows tangible numerical results? Nothing. Why? Maybe because the UK will help them out by taking in all their unskilled labour, thus lessening the home burden. We make it too easy for them. Maybe the UK leaving will be a wake-up call to every member state to get off their backsides and do something to create home employment.

If your entire premise wasn't demonstrably false, you might have a point. But it is, and you don't.

Shard Dec 17th 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by iano (Post 12400995)
This being the problem, it's impossible to refute the idealogues claims for the future post-Brexit. "Sunlit uplands" as Eric describes it, is the hope and the dream but is based on very little of substance or historical evidence, or expert opinion, yet is difficult to counter.

A continuation of 'Project Fear' won't work, the only course remaining is to sit back and watch the UK hit the rocks, and then for the public mood to turn and just hope the economy is salavageable from the wreckage.

A more coordinated message might help:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...exit-deal-vote

What's surprising is that Brexit voters don't consider the backgrounds of the hard core Brexit proponents and ask, are these people likely to represent my interests?

- Mogg
- Gove
- BoJo
- Redwood
- Weatherspoons idiot
- Isabel Oakeshott

It's not a substitute for proper analysis, but a shortcut for those that don't want to get into the detail.

Red Eric Dec 17th 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12401102)
Four out of the top five nations in the developed world with the highest rate of unemployment are in the EU. What are they doing about it that shows tangible numerical results? Nothing.

Whose figures are you citing and which are they?

Novocastrian Dec 17th 2017 5:22 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12401113)
Whose figures are you citing and which are they?

Oh, why bother asking?

Shard Dec 17th 2017 5:26 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12401102)
So much negativity for an event that has yet to happen. You people say you want to see a Brexit that is best for the UK and the British people, well, the UK apart, which has/is/will always do well, the British people have been lied to and sold out to the EU project and now they are saying they have had enough. What is it about this you do not understand? .

Some Brits have been brainwashed to think that, but it simply is not the case. Do you not remember the Sick Man of Europe? And as for the current EU, Britain built it, not singlehandedly, but as a major member. We're in it because, geographically the Europe is next door, and trade tends to be done with geographically close neighbours. We leave, we can trade elsewhere, but at higher cost and probably reduced volume. There is no economic benefit in it. If you prefer to swap low cost immigrant labour from Europeans to Asians (as it's becoming completely evident on how reliant Britain is for external labour) that's a valid argument, but don't try and sell the pie in the sky argument. Whatever gains we make ex-EU will be dwarfed by losses from the EU.

Red Eric Dec 17th 2017 5:31 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12401116)
Oh, why bother asking?

:goodpost:

Yes, on 2nd thoughts, forget it la mancha. I haven't the time anyway.

Richard8655 Dec 17th 2017 5:35 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12400970)

I agree entirely with your comment about opposition. I've heard so often the phrase 'it is the duty of Her Majesty's opposition to oppose'. It's stupid.

Yes true, that’s how effective government works. The opposition must oppose but also must be selective in what should be opposed.

But in this case, not opposing is colluding in passively allowing a potential generational disaster. Something like this needs as much maximum criticism and devil’s advocacy as possible. This isn’t one of the many minor bills before Parliament. It’s a sea change for the country.

Novocastrian Dec 17th 2017 5:39 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12400970)
Yes - I think Labour will be in trouble with their own supporters if they are instrumental in achieving a 'soft' Brexit.

In fact I think they already are - it's probably the reason they haven't got a huge lead when they would be expected to considering the utter incompetence of the Tories atm.

that all of the bile was thrown at the Tory rebels and none at Labour - practically all of whom voted against the government. They would do well to try to keep that dynamic going.



First bold: Which is why Corbyn is playing a hand close to his chest. Labour have no need to be the "cause" of anything. The Tories will self destruct without external help. I'd add that Corbyn's success in the last election was largely due to inspiring the generation who will/would pay the price of a hard Brexit. A lot more young voters will be in play next time.

Second bold: They don't need a huge lead right now. Especially if doing so involves steps opening them to vilification later on.


Third bold:So the plan is working very well.

007Steve Dec 17th 2017 5:58 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Even with current events, the electorate need a LOTof convincing that Labour has changed, IMO.
The memory of Militant (now Momentum) is still too fresh.
Being different from t'other lot just isn't enough............

morpeth Dec 17th 2017 6:20 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12401075)
The UK has only had 3 national Referendum votes 1975, 2011 and 2016 so its not a common occurrence.
The concept of a referendum was widely seen in British politics as "unconstitutional" and an "alien device".
Two of these referendums were held on the issue of the United Kingdom's relationship with Europe.
The 2011 AV referendum on the proposal to use the alternative vote system in parliamentary elections is the only UK-wide referendum that has been held on a domestic issue.

Would you trust the voters with another referendum based on previous experiences?

I would be much more comfortable with a referendum which was much better worded so those voting for Brexit realized that for many they will not get at all what they thought they were voting for - if Brexit was still voted for at least some it would be with eyes a bit wider open- I suspect it would lose a second time around. Which is kind of ironic those who claim following the vote for the first referendum is just pure democracy, are scared of a second vote because democracy may give a different result.

ECJ must be a scary bunch to make a country go against its economic interests so dramatically just to get away fro its rules.


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