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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Red Eric Dec 17th 2017 6:28 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Richard8655 (Post 12400910)
Myself I have no idea why Labour and Corbyn are going along with this fiasco. Is it now party over country for them?

Because they have decided that standing for completely ignoring the result of the referendum is not currently a viable option and that there are other pressing matters which need to be addressed whether or not the UK is a member of the EU.

The leave / remain divide cuts across the party lines anyway and the Conservatives(+) have the numbers to steamroller everything through as long as all their number vote to command. There are rarely enough of them prepared not to to bring any amendments. When they do, the nation's press descends into hysterics and MPs' lives are threatened.

Labour's stance has left enough room for manoeuvre - they could still stand for remaining in the single market and the customs union without it going too contrary to what they have previously said although at the moment they're understandably ambivalent on those points. The Conservatives, on the other hand, have set their stall out completely on leaving both, so they must now rely either on the beneficence of the EU in creating / allowing some kind of parallel but almost identical arrangement or on the hardest of hard Brexits.

I can't see the Conservatives changing tack. Labour might but only if they were convinced that public opinion is sufficiently weighted. For the time being there's sufficient distance between them to mark a very clear distinction.

jimenato Dec 17th 2017 6:42 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
I think you'll find that there is a strong support for hard Brexit among traditional Labour supporters in fact I think that that is where most of the support is.

And Cape Blue is right when he says that the main drivers of the leave vote were immigration, money paid out and European law primacy and that to honour the spirit and letter of the referendum result we therefore have to leave the internal market and all the other major institutions of the EU.

It'll be a brave party to go against that. Or one which has no chance of winning like the LibDems.

Red Eric Dec 17th 2017 7:22 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12400958)
I think you'll find that there is a strong support for hard Brexit among traditional Labour supporters in fact I think that that is where most of the support is.

If that is true (and I'm certainly not convinced on that), then it shows what a very bold step indeed Labour have taken in opting to stick out for a soft Brexit and for leaving open the possibility of continued single market / customs union membership after the interim period and makes it all the more puzzling that they should continue to get the brunt of criticism for not doing enough to oppose the Tories. It isn't, after all, their job to simply say the complete opposite of what the governing party says (although that's what some people, many of whom wouldn't vote Labour come what may, seem to expect). Not you, of course - just generally.

jimenato Dec 17th 2017 8:03 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12400965)
If that is true (and I'm certainly not convinced on that), then it shows what a very bold step indeed Labour have taken in opting to stick out for a soft Brexit and for leaving open the possibility of continued single market / customs union membership after the interim period and makes it all the more puzzling that they should continue to get the brunt of criticism for not doing enough to oppose the Tories. It isn't, after all, their job to simply say the complete opposite of what the governing party says (although that's what some people, many of whom wouldn't vote Labour come what may, seem to expect). Not you, of course - just generally.

Yes - I think Labour will be in trouble with their own supporters if they are instrumental in achieving a 'soft' (i.e. 'non' amongst many people) Brexit.

In fact I think they already are - it's probably the reason they haven't got a huge lead when they would be expected to considering the utter incompetence of the Tories atm.

It was noticeable at the aforementioned Question Time that all of the bile was thrown at the Tory rebels and none at Labour - practically all of whom voted against the government. They would do well to try to keep that dynamic going.

I agree entirely with your comment about opposition. I've heard so often the phrase 'it is the duty of Her Majesty's opposition to oppose'. It's stupid.

EMR Dec 17th 2017 8:16 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12400958)
I think you'll find that there is a strong support for hard Brexit among traditional Labour supporters in fact I think that that is where most of the support is.

And Cape Blue is right when he says that the main drivers of the leave vote were immigration, money paid out and European law primacy and that to honour the spirit and letter of the referendum result we therefore have to leave the internal market and all the other major institutions of the EU.

It'll be a brave party to go against that. Or one which has no chance of winning like the LibDems.


I believed at the time of the vote and still believe that those you refer to have little idea of the damage that they personally will suffer from a hard brexit.
It will be the lower paid, the unskilled, those reliant on the benefits of current EU membership who will be the first to feel the affect of its negative affects.
Labour is right in its current stance .
The future of the UK is far too important to be left to those whose views that Cape Blue referred to and supports.
It may not be the will of some of the majority who voted to leave but the prosperity of the UK and it's people should come first and any party that promotes that will have my support.

amideislas Dec 17th 2017 8:23 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12400974)
I believed at the time of the vote and still believe that those you refer to have little idea of the damage that they personally will suffer from a hard brexit.
It will be the lower paid, the unskilled, those reliant on the benefits of current EU membership who will be the first to feel the affect of its negative affects.
Labour is right in its current stance .
The future of the UK is far too important to be left to those whose views that Cape Blue referred to and supports.
It may not be the will of some of the majority who voted to leave but the prosperity of the UK and it's people should come first and any party that promotes that will have my support.

Well, the "prosperity of the UK and it's people" is precisely the mantra the Tories claim will be the result of Brexit (well, the current leadership anyway). Although there's precious little tangible evidence to support that claim.

jimenato Dec 17th 2017 8:43 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12400970)
Yes - I think Labour will be in trouble with their own supporters if they are instrumental in achieving a 'soft' (i.e. 'non' amongst many people) Brexit.

In fact I think they already are - it's probably the reason they haven't got a huge lead when they would be expected to considering the utter incompetence of the Tories atm.

It was noticeable at the aforementioned Question Time that all of the bile was thrown at the Tory rebels and little at Labour - practically all of whom voted against the government. They would do well to try to keep that dynamic going.

I agree entirely with your comment about opposition. I've heard so often the phrase 'it is the duty of Her Majesty's opposition to oppose'. It's stupid.

I'm watching Andrew Marr right now and he has just spoken with Diane Abbot and he played the specific clip from Question Time that I was talking about.

Watch it if you can - I will try to post it later - it neatly illustrates Labour's dilemma.

She was asked several times about what Labour would like to be the outcome of the negotiations including several specific issues and all she could say is 'we are not conducting these negotiations - we will have to see what the Tories come up with' - so emphasising the point I was making that they are dissociating themselves from the whole poisonous circus.

If Labour want to win they seriously need to drop Diane Abbot - she is utterly useless as a spokes person and a disaster area for them. Marr said several times 'you must know - you could be Home Secretary very shortly'. That is truly worrying.

I have no idea why Corbyn keeps her on apart from what's in her knickers.

EMR Dec 17th 2017 8:43 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12400975)
Well, the "prosperity of the UK and it's people" is precisely the mantra the Tories claim will be the result of Brexit (well, the current leadership anyway). Although there's precious little tangible evidence to support that claim.

A hard Tory brexit future with all that implies will not produce anything positive for those Labour voters who voted to leave.

Garbatellamike Dec 17th 2017 9:38 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12400970)
Yes - I think Labour will be in trouble with their own supporters if they are instrumental in achieving a 'soft' (i.e. 'non' amongst many people) Brexit.

In fact I think they already are - it's probably the reason they haven't got a huge lead when they would be expected to considering the utter incompetence of the Tories atm.

It was noticeable a1t the aforementioned Question Time that all of the bile was thrown at the Tory rebels and none at Labour - practically all of whom voted against the government. They would do well to try to keep that dynamic going.

I agree entirely with your comment about opposition. I've heard so often the phrase 'it is the duty of Her Majesty's opposition to oppose'. It's stupid.

:goodpost: spot on

iano Dec 17th 2017 9:44 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12400975)
Well, the "prosperity of the UK and it's people" is precisely the mantra the Tories claim will be the result of Brexit (well, the current leadership anyway). Although there's precious little tangible evidence to support that claim.

This being the problem, it's impossible to refute the idealogues claims for the future post-Brexit. "Sunlit uplands" as Eric describes it, is the hope and the dream but is based on very little of substance or historical evidence, or expert opinion, yet is difficult to counter.

A continuation of 'Project Fear' won't work, the only course remaining is to sit back and watch the UK hit the rocks, and then for the public mood to turn and just hope the economy is salavageable from the wreckage.

Vexcore Dec 17th 2017 9:57 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
The Westminster elite, who know best, who understand it all, who ignore the will of the people. This is becoming a stitch up. Is there no one with the will, with the fight and with the heart of a democratic voice who can unravel this knitted vail of deceit. For a subject that engulfed the country in real debate it is so one sided and overwhelming with the silent majority silent. I am now in favour of seeing *treason/may* rightly removed from office.

At least get Mogg in or someone with balls... Remember it really isn't that complicated. Leave means leave no? (long as we're part of anything EU related) then BREXIT didn't happen at all lol

I bet you remainers on here are absolutely loving this lol..


bring on the haters lol

-Vex Rant

EMR Dec 17th 2017 10:56 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Vexcore (Post 12400997)
The Westminster elite, who know best, who understand it all, who ignore the will of the people. This is becoming a stitch up. Is there no one with the will, with the fight and with the heart of a democratic voice who can unravel this knitted vail of deceit. For a subject that engulfed the country in real debate it is so one sided and overwhelming with the silent majority silent. I am now in favour of seeing *treason/may* rightly removed from office.

At least get Mogg in or someone with balls... Remember it really isn't that complicated. Leave means leave no? (long as we're part of anything EU related) then BREXIT didn't happen at all lol

I bet you remainers on here are absolutely loving this lol..


bring on the haters lol

-Vex Rant

A democracy is there to ensure the rights and priveledges of all not just a narrow minded minority of hard brexiters.
I am pleased that the end result will be one of damage limitation rather than narrow minded rhetoric.
As will all tens millions those whose economic security is maintained rather than sacrificed on the alter of a hard brexit.

Former Lancastrian Dec 17th 2017 11:26 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12401004)
A democracy is there to ensure the rights and priveledges of all not just a narrow minded minority FIFY
.

There are currently 650 MP's in Parliament and about 800 members of the House Of Lords allegedly representing approx 65 million people at the last UN estimate.
Do these 1,450 esteemed people really represent everyone?
Yes I admit you cant have the general population voting on if there should be another raise in the VAT, personal income tax, sending troops into dangerous areas as the ones in charge might find that their isn't a general consensus in doing these things. I think Boaty McBoatface was an example of this albeit it was a piss taking thing that went viral.

Perhaps for future referendums if ever held again there perhaps might be some due diligence done before a question is asked of the general public which is clear and spells out what they are voting for less the question be lost in translation.

Garbatellamike Dec 17th 2017 11:37 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12401013)
There are currently 650 MP's in Parliament and about 800 members of the House Of Lords allegedly representing approx 65 million people at the last UN estimate.
Do these 1,450 esteemed people really represent everyone?
Yes I admit you cant have the general population voting on if there should be another raise in the VAT, personal income tax, sending troops into dangerous areas as the ones in charge might find that their isn't a general consensus in doing these things. I think Boaty McBoatface was an example of this albeit it was a piss taking thing that went viral.

Perhaps for future referendums if ever held again there perhaps might be some due diligence done before a question is asked of the general public which is clear and spells out what they are voting for less the question be lost in translation.

l tend to agree, one of the issues is the political class are not a microcosm of the people they are supposed to represent and that needs to be put right if we are to have functioning demoacracy.

I also think iano is right to argue that it is time to put project fear to bed and argue things positively.

jimenato is also right on the oppose everything point.

Brexit views transcend the political divide, there are hard core leavers and hard core remainers in both the Tory and Labour camps.

LouisB Dec 17th 2017 3:08 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
As brexit inevitably continues to be shit and now more people are recognising that, at least the prospect of no brexit increases significantly.

As much as Mogg et al and the down to Earth brexiteers have the best interest of the country and the average working person at heart :rofl: at least peak ignorance has now come to pass.

What we’re left with is a fact based reality we have to live in. The consequences of our choices are very real. Good outcomes are unlikely from ill-informed decisions and blaming.

It always pays to make decisions with that in mind.

Hopefully going forward, the next time this sort of question comes up, people will sit up, get informed and make wise choices.

I hope I’m not dreaming, but things are changing, the tide is turning.


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