British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Former Lancastrian Dec 1st 2017 10:30 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12392673)
Idiot,

Pissed already Novo? I couldn't be arsed to Hold down the "Ctrl" and "Shift" keys, and then press the colon key. Release the keys, and then type a vowel in upper or lower case. 3. Use Office's Unicode shortcut combination to put an umlaut over a non-vowel character.

I also used the spelling of the type of kebab widely available in Canada and yes I have waited in line for one at the corner of Grafton and Blowers St in Halifax.

Annetje Dec 1st 2017 10:39 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12392673)
Idiot,

:lol::lol::lol:

007Steve Dec 2nd 2017 8:57 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
1 Attachment(s)
... or putting it another way

EMR Dec 2nd 2017 12:07 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12392474)
There is a difference between indirect jurisdiction of the ECJ in certain agreed matters and EU law being supreme to UK national law as an EU law principle.

After independence many Commonwealth countries retained the UK Privy Council as a Court of Appeal. (Often shipping cases). It didn't affect their independence and most have ended this now (their own decision).

When did the ECJ ever affect our independence.?

Examples please ?

Bipat Dec 2nd 2017 12:33 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12392872)
When did the ECJ ever affect our independence.?

Examples please ?

You are mixing two statements.

I was pointing out that using a non-national court as a court of appeal for certain particular cases was not the same as having another law system 'superior' to your own national system. In other words it does not cross the 'red-line'.

I used the example of Commonwealth countries after THEIR independence doing this. Also pointing out that they could alter this system when THEY wished and most have.

(Also a similarity in that for the UK this is for aviation safety and many of the cases brought to Privy Council were shipping cases. Disputes which may cover several countries.)

macliam Dec 2nd 2017 1:04 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12392878)
You are mixing two statements.

I was pointing out that using a non-national court as a court of appeal for certain particular cases was not the same as having another law system 'superior' to your own national system. In other words it does not cross the 'red-line'.

I used the example of Commonwealth countries after THEIR independence doing this. Also pointing out that they could alter this system when THEY wished and most have.

(Also a similarity in that for the UK this is for aviation safety and many of the cases brought to Privy Council were shipping cases. Disputes which may cover several countries.)

........ and still no example of where the ECJ has impacted the independence of the British judiciary.

Bipat Dec 2nd 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12392888)
........ and still no example of where the ECJ has impacted the independence of the British judiciary.

If another law system is superior to the national system then it has impacted hasn't it?

EU law was incorporated into UK domestic law by the European Communities Act 1972, along with jurisdiction and judgements from the ECJ into UK law.
The superiority of EU law over domestic law is a condition of membership of the EU.

In simple terms the British judiciary is still independent as EU law is now part of UK law but UK law is not independent of EU law.

macliam Dec 2nd 2017 1:51 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12392893)
If another law system is superior to the national system then it has impacted hasn't it?

EU law was incorporated into UK domestic law by the European Communities Act 1972, along with jurisdiction and judgements from the ECJ into UK law.
The superiority of EU law over domestic law is a condition of membership of the EU.

In simple terms the British judiciary is still independent as EU law is now part of UK law but UK law is not independent of EU law.

So, those will be the EU laws that Britain helped to establish and that have been accepted by the UK parliament, yes? Laws that are so awful that they are to be incorporated wholesale into UK law as part of the Brexit process?

Or, are you suggesting that the incorporation of any internationally agreed mores into UK law is "interference"? Are you just trying to continue the ridiculous assertion that the big, nasty EU has usurped the sovereignty of the UK by using suggested possibilities that can equally be applied to the UN, NATO and any other supra-national bodies?

I ask again, where is the example that the ECJ has ever overruled a decision by the UKSC or interfered in national law? Like papal infallibility, its powers are not general, but limited to certain specific matters - just as the "club rules" apply to any member.

Bipat Dec 2nd 2017 2:23 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12392904)
So, those will be the EU laws that Britain helped to establish and that have been accepted by the UK parliament, yes? Laws that are so awful that they are to be incorporated wholesale into UK law as part of the Brexit process?

Or, are you suggesting that the incorporation of any internationally agreed mores into UK law is "interference"? Are you just trying to continue the ridiculous assertion that the big, nasty EU has usurped the sovereignty of the UK by using suggested possibilities that can equally be applied to the UN, NATO and any other supra-national bodies?

I ask again, where is the example that the ECJ has ever overruled a decision by the UKSC or interfered in national law? Like papal infallibility, its powers are not general, but limited to certain specific matters - just as the "club rules" apply to any member.

How many times---EU law per se is superior to UK law---and has to be incorporated into UK law as a condition of membership.

It is not limited to specific agreement as in UN/Nato etc.
The principle of 'subsidiarity' means that all parts UK law is usually/preferably not interfered with---but it 'could' be if EU law applies--(example deportation of non-EU criminals--recent case)

It has not "usurped"/"interfered". By being a member of the EU the UK accepts the rules, including that of 'Superiority of EU law', this is a principle of membership, you cannot argue with that!!

There are thousands and thousands of cases dealt with by the ECJ the UK has lost cases just as other EU countries have.
You again use the word "overrule" courts do not "overrule" each other they give a judgement in appeal they only deal with cases brought before them. Although the ECJ does on occasions give an 'opinion' on a case in advance to save time.

Red Eric Dec 2nd 2017 2:39 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12392912)
How many times---EU law per se is superior to UK law---and has to be incorporated into UK law as a condition of membership.

It is not limited to specific agreement as in UN/Nato etc.

Begging your pardon but it is.

It's limited to the agreements reached in the drafting of the Treaties


Treaty objectives are agreed by the member governments when a new Treaty is being drafted. The EU can only propose new laws to fulfill the completion of those Treaty objectives, and should not come out with measures outside of that framework.

Basically, the governments agree a 10 year plan, which is then put into Treaty form. They then tell the Commission to implement these policies by coming out with legislative proposals to fulfill the agreed Treaty objectives. Once a law has been passed, the different countries agree to implement it, and allow it to override national law.
http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu...ional-law.html

EMR Dec 2nd 2017 3:05 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12392893)
If another law system is superior to the national system then it has impacted hasn't it?

EU law was incorporated into UK domestic law by the European Communities Act 1972, along with jurisdiction and judgements from the ECJ into UK law.
The superiority of EU law over domestic law is a condition of membership of the EU.

In simple terms the British judiciary is still independent as EU law is now part of UK law but UK law is not independent of EU law.

Do you have any Examples, no Brexiter ever has.

Bipat Dec 2nd 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12392924)
Do you have any Examples, no Brexiter ever has.

Examples of what??

If you mean cases--- a quick search of the multiple cases--The M&S case.

https://www.brugesgroup.com/media-ce...ritish-tax-law

Bipat Dec 2nd 2017 3:27 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12392917)
Begging your pardon but it is.

It's limited to the agreements reached in the drafting of the Treaties


http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu...ional-law.html

Your own link --"Does EU law override National law?" ---"Yes it does"!

Obviously, we are speaking of EU law---that which is decided by the Treaties. If you remember, the powers of the ECJ were increased by the Lisbon Treaty.

macliam Dec 2nd 2017 3:36 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12392912)
How many times---EU law per se is superior to UK law---and has to be incorporated into UK law as a condition of membership.

It is not limited to specific agreement as in UN/Nato etc.
The principle of 'subsidiarity' means that all parts UK law is usually/preferably not interfered with---but it 'could' be if EU law applies--(example deportation of non-EU criminals--recent case)

It has not "usurped"/"interfered". By being a member of the EU the UK accepts the rules, including that of 'Superiority of EU law', this is a principle of membership, you cannot argue with that!!

There are thousands and thousands of cases dealt with by the ECJ the UK has lost cases just as other EU countries have.
You again use the word "overrule" courts do not "overrule" each other they give a judgement in appeal they only deal with cases brought before them. Although the ECJ does on occasions give an 'opinion' on a case in advance to save time.

Your attempt to semantics to obfuscate the matter in hand will do you no good. You are fully aware that when an appeal court gives it's own judgement on a case and that is different to the judgement of a lower court, the appeal carries and the decision of the lower court is set aside - in normal parlance this is seen as being overruled. That is the reason for the hierarchy of local, national, appeal and supreme courts within a legal system.

Therefore, using your semantics, please supply a single example where the supposedly "superior" ECJ has EVER come to a judgement on a given case that is different to that of a British court and has therefore had the earlier judgement set aside..... The fact that the UK, like many other states, has lost a case brought directly to the ECJ is not applicable. Or, provide a single example where it would be desirable for a UK court to overrule laws emanating from the EU.

As a member of a club, we agreed that rules pertaining to the management of that club apply and that individual members cannot pick and choose which rules they will and will not accept. What club does not take that stance? The ECJ exists to ensure that states do not apply the laws differentially. The fact that such rules have been incorporated into UK law, when agreed, is irrelevant - they have been incorporated so that decisions can be made at a local level.

EMR Dec 2nd 2017 3:42 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12392928)
Examples of what??

If you mean cases--- a quick search of the thousands--

https://www.brugesgroup.com/media-ce...ritish-tax-law

How many have negatively affected you, any Brexiter.
Examples please.


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