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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Red Eric Nov 15th 2017 9:26 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12382947)
I have never given it as my primary reason for voting leave--

I know. That's why I said "one of your primary reasons", which you'd have a job arguing against, given the number of times you have posted your vision of the same rules for all.

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12382947)
however if it leads to immigration according to need and not country of origin that will be a positive.

It could well end up being a combination of the two, judging by what has emerged so far. There might be a little fudging about what exactly constitutes immigration but if the flows from the EU remain largely in the same proportions against non EU, you'll hardly be able to claim vindication in that regard, given the arguments you keep putting forward about the relative numbers of countries and populations involved. Same goes for any special dispensation or differentiation in requirements (think income requirements, for example).

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12382947)
I will accept it--what else can anyone do?

Of course - we'll all have to accept whatever happens. I didn't suggest otherwise. However if the UK ends up worse off economically and none of your main objections have been addressed by Brexit, won't you have any doubts about the wisdom of voting to leave?

EMR Nov 15th 2017 9:26 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12383005)
Your post doesn't make sense. How do you know what will be disappointing?
How did Brexiters vote deliberately for measures that they would be disappointed about?

If there are few changes to UK immigration policy you will be disappointed.
If migrant numbers, EU and non EU do not fall significantly those for who immigration was their main reason for voting brexit will be disappointed.
Is that clear enough for you.

Bipat Nov 15th 2017 10:38 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12383023)
I know. That's why I said "one of your primary reasons", which you'd have a job arguing against, given the number of times you have posted your vision of the same rules for all.

It could well end up being a combination of the two, judging by what has emerged so far. There might be a little fudging about what exactly constitutes immigration but if the flows from the EU remain largely in the same proportions against non EU, you'll hardly be able to claim vindication in that regard, given the arguments you keep putting forward about the relative numbers of countries and populations involved. Same goes for any special dispensation or differentiation in requirements (think income requirements, for example).

Of course - we'll all have to accept whatever happens. I didn't suggest otherwise. However if the UK ends up worse off economically and none of your main objections have been addressed by Brexit, won't you have any doubts about the wisdom of voting to leave?

So are you saying you expect free movement from the EU countries will continue?
If immigration is according to need the proportions will be different at different times. What is your reason against this?

If we leave, my main objections, the federalist aims and the powers of the ECJ will be addressed. The ability to make FTAs with countries which will be leaders of the future and viewing those who wish to work and live in the UK on a basis regardless of their origins is also important.

Bipat Nov 15th 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12383024)
If there are few changes to UK immigration policy you will be disappointed.
If migrant numbers, EU and non EU do not fall significantly those for who immigration was their main reason for voting brexit will be disappointed.
Is that clear enough for you.

The change will be to 'free movement' of people from some European countries.
(I am not personally concerned about immigration but think it should obviously be just about needs of the UK.)

It is clear enough to me but not to you apparently that by using the word "IF" you do not know what the outcomes will be.

You said above "that is what you voted for"; to state that Brexiters will be disappointed and that is what they voted for doesn't make sense!! :lol:

EMR Nov 16th 2017 12:14 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12383068)
The change will be to 'free movement' of people from some European countries.
(I am not personally concerned about immigration but think it should obviously be just about needs of the UK.)

It is clear enough to me but not to you apparently that by using the word "IF" you do not know what the outcomes will be.

You said above "that is what you voted for"; to state that Brexiters will be disappointed and that is what they voted for doesn't make sense!! :lol:

You do not seem to understand that whatever happens it will be because of the brexit vote.
Therefore it will be what you and all others who voted to leave voted for..
Because without your votes it will not have happened.
It's simple logic.
Like the fall in sterling, rising food price inflation.
It's down to you and all those who voted to leave.

Red Eric Nov 16th 2017 9:16 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12383057)
So are you saying you expect free movement from the EU countries will continue?

No. What gave you that idea? :confused:

However I do expect that there may well continue to be differentiation between the types of work that can be undertaken by EU citizens and non EU citizens.


Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12383057)
If immigration is according to need the proportions will be different at different times. What is your reason against this?

I don't have any objection but if you say that the system will be truly equal for all and if the desire of peoples from all over the world to migrate to the UK is as strong as some seem to assume, one would have thought that the proportions would change significantly.

It's you who has the objection to some nations having looser immigration requirements due to their other arrangements. If the proportions don't change then clearly there was never a problem in that regard in the first place. Either that or it wasn't addressed by Brexit ;)


Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12383057)
If we leave, my main objections, the federalist aims and the powers of the ECJ will be addressed. The ability to make FTAs with countries which will be leaders of the future and viewing those who wish to work and live in the UK on a basis regardless of their origins is also important.

The UK had already secured a cop out on the so-called federalism. We'll have to wait and see on the ECJ but either it or a court so similar it might as well be the same will be overseeing some matters for some time to come.

I have my doubts about the "free" trade but time will tell on that front. Losing a massive chunk of guaranteed free trade, particularly in the sectors in which the UK operates most at the moment, in the hope of making it up elsewhere is a bit rash, in my opinion, to say nothing of the other downsides.

iano Nov 16th 2017 10:05 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Well put, sir.

"The ability to make FTAs with countries which will be leaders of the future" is the mantra that has been clouding judgement for some time now.

A whole clutch of global FTAs, even with 'leaders of the future' will not replace the economic benefits we're about to lose from the huge internal market right on our doorstep. Brexiteer pipe dreams.

EMR Nov 16th 2017 10:14 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by iano (Post 12383309)
Well put, sir.

"The ability to make FTAs with countries which will be leaders of the future" is the mantra that has been clouding judgement for some time now.

A whole clutch of global FTAs, even with 'leaders of the future' will not replace the economic benefits we're about to lose from the huge internal market right on our doorstep. Brexiteer pipe dreams.

I thought we no longer needed FTA, WTO rules will provide a bonus worth billions for the UK economy .
According to leading brexiters that is.
Anyone seen Liam Fox ?

Bipat Nov 16th 2017 10:24 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12383277)
No. What gave you that idea? :confused:

1) However I do expect that there may well continue to be differentiation between the types of work that can be undertaken by EU citizens and non EU citizens.


2) I don't have any objection but if you say that the system will be truly equal for all and if the desire of peoples from all over the world to migrate to the UK is as strong as some seem to assume, one would have thought that the proportions would change significantly.

It's you who has the objection to some nations having looser immigration requirements due to their other arrangements. If the proportions don't change then clearly there was never a problem in that regard in the first place. Either that or it wasn't addressed by Brexit ;)


3)The UK had already secured a cop out on the so-called federalism. We'll have to wait and see on the ECJ but either it or a court so similar it might as well be the same will be overseeing some matters for some time to come.

4)I have my doubts about the "free" trade but time will tell on that front. Losing a massive chunk of guaranteed free trade, particularly in the sectors in which the UK operates most at the moment, in the hope of making it up elsewhere is a bit rash, in my opinion, to say nothing of the other downsides.

1) Yes, however differentiation between types of work does not restrict to 27 countries, if someone from Brazil wants to come and pick carrots for six months, why not? Combining work with holiday is not unknown for British people also is it?

2)The point is requirements change so proportions will change from year to year and according to who applies to come to the UK.

3)"So called federalism" this has been a fundamental aim of many since EEC days and particularly with those involved in the drafting of the Lisbon Treaty. Discussed previously--
Opt outs can be changed by further Treaties.
The ECJ may be involved in some matters but it will not be supreme over UK law as now.

4)FTDs can be made without EU restrictions.

iano Nov 16th 2017 10:46 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12383317)
Anyone seen Liam Fox ?

Laying ever lower, I believe. Just been reported once again for breaching the ministerial code over some internecine tweet criticising Spreadshite Phil's dept, or something ridiculous.

Each day brings fresh embarrassment for the nation.

EMR Nov 16th 2017 11:35 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12383323)
1) Yes, however differentiation between types of work does not restrict to 27 countries, if someone from Brazil wants to come and pick carrots for six months, why not? Combining work with holiday is not unknown for British people also is it?

2)The point is requirements change so proportions will change from year to year and according to who applies to come to the UK.

3)"So called federalism" this has been a fundamental aim of many since EEC days and particularly with those involved in the drafting of the Lisbon Treaty. Discussed previously--
Opt outs can be changed by further Treaties.
The ECJ may be involved in some matters but it will not be supreme over UK law as now.

4)FTDs can be made without EU restrictions.

The UK could only agree to opt outs by agreeing to changes in existing treaties.
Doing that would be like voting for higher prices, economic uncertainty etc .
But of course that is exactly what Brexiters did.
Regarding the ECJ, I am still waiting and have been waiting for at least two years for a Brexiter any Brexiter to give any examples of how the ECJ has negativly impacted on them or the UK.

Red Eric Nov 16th 2017 2:33 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12383323)
1) Yes, however differentiation between types of work does not restrict to 27 countries, if someone from Brazil wants to come and pick carrots for six months, why not? Combining work with holiday is not unknown for British people also is it?

So you're saying that post Brexit, everybody will be given exactly the same consideration no matter where they come from and that the UK will welcome the entire world even on short-term unskilled and semi-skilled labour contracts? And that all other circumstances eg family reunions, will work in a similarly identical manner? You don't see any possibility whatsoever of there being any differentiation, of some things being a bit different, possibly easier in some areas for EU citizens, despite what's emerged so far?


Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12383323)
2)The point is requirements change so proportions will change from year to year and according to who applies to come to the UK.

Will they? Under what circumstances might we not end up with a representative sample of the entire world's population under a totally equal opps immigration policy such as the one you have been so keenly promoting? Are you saying some countries are incapable of producing people to match the UK's requirements? And if that is the case, why make so much of the EU having been able to supply them hitherto and possibly having to continue to meet the demand in future?


Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12383323)
3)"So called federalism" this has been a fundamental aim of many since EEC days and particularly with those involved in the drafting of the Lisbon Treaty. Discussed previously--
Opt outs can be changed by further Treaties.

You Eurosceptics are priceless sometimes. On the one hand you argue tooth and nail that the UK is irrevocably bound by regulations and treaties which don't suit it, on the other you suggest that the UK opt outs enshrined in the existing treaties can be quashed at the stroke of a pen and against the UK's will. Seeing as the panto season's upon us
Spoiler:
OH NO THEY CAN'T



Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12383323)
The ECJ may be involved in some matters but it will not be supreme over UK law as now.

Really? :unsure: Whatever court the UK eventually agrees to be ruled by when it finally climbs down on this issue will have the final say in future disputes.

Lion in Winter Nov 16th 2017 2:40 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
I'm getting a bit lost here. Is the main benefit to leaving the EU that the nationality of the people picking our carrots will change? :confused:

EMR Nov 16th 2017 3:07 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12383472)
I'm getting a bit lost here. Is the main benefit to leaving the EU that the nationality of the people picking our carrots will change? :confused:

Change to robotic picking machines NOT made in the UK.
While the UK unemployed who looked on enviously at eastern European workers anticipating the day that they would have the opportunity to work in the cold, rain and mud continue to sit on their sofas in front of day time tv.

Bipat Nov 16th 2017 3:32 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12383470)
1)So you're saying that post Brexit, everybody will be given exactly the same consideration no matter where they come from and that the UK will welcome the entire world even on short-term unskilled and semi-skilled labour contracts? And that all other circumstances eg family reunions, will work in a similarly identical manner? You don't see any possibility whatsoever of there being any differentiation, of some things being a bit different, possibly easier in some areas for EU citizens, despite what's emerged so far?


2) Will they? Under what circumstances might we not end up with a representative sample of the entire world's population under a totally equal opps immigration policy such as the one you have been so keenly promoting? Are you saying some countries are incapable of producing people to match the UK's requirements? And if that is the case, why make so much of the EU having been able to supply them hitherto and possibly having to continue to meet the demand in future?


3)You Eurosceptics are priceless sometimes. On the one hand you argue tooth and nail that the UK is irrevocably bound by regulations and treaties which don't suit it, on the other you suggest that the UK opt outs enshrined in the existing treaties can be quashed at the stroke of a pen and against the UK's will. Seeing as the panto season's upon us
Spoiler:
OH NO THEY CAN'T



4)Really? :unsure: Whatever court the UK eventually agrees to be ruled by when it finally climbs down on this issue will have the final say in future disputes.

1) +2) I don't know what will happen post brexit, but the UK will not be a member of the EU!!
What have you got against equality, would you prefer only European migrants coming to the UK including those from the EU countries??

The "entire world" as you put it is not the issue it is migrants that will supply the need of the UK. (As in most other countries).

The Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1962 ended free movement of Commonwealth citizens it did not end their coming or lead to 'the entire world' coming!
The EU has not supplied enough migrants in many areas, most foreign origin NHS staff for example are from elsewhere.
When number controls are necessary obviously control cannot happen when one small unit of countries has free movement.

3)The major Treaties made major changes--

4)There is a difference as I have said in the ECJ being involved in certain particular disputes and the EU law being Supreme to UK (national) law.


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