British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

EMR Oct 13th 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12360209)
.....because, strangely, that's what happens in negotiations. otherwise it's just a stand-off.

I believe, on some levels, the EU has been beneficial to all EU states.
However, I do not believe a federal EU is, or ever will be, a viable proposition.
I believe the EU needs substantial reform to undo the errors of the past.
I believe the UK leaving reduces the chance of a reformed EU.
I believe the UK leaving will exascerbate the financial issues of the EU.
I believe the UK will pay a heavy price for leaving the EU.
I believe the EU commission is more concerned with pushing its own agenda than undertaking reforms to reduce wastage and inefficiency.
- so, overall, I think the UK leaving is a problem for all sides.

I disagree with very little of the above.

Cape Blue Oct 13th 2017 2:57 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Annetje (Post 12360138)
Sorry, I believe the EU has presented a position paper a while ago which DD is ''examining'' line by line.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...ement_en_2.pdf


Concerning the audited accounts, plenty proof to find that every account since 2007 has been signed off.

Can you point me to the £ or euro number in that report?

Cape Blue Oct 13th 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12360146)
The EU is presenting us with an invoice based on what the UK government were paying towards EU-wide programs during the current funding period (which I think is 2014-2020). Most of these funds will have been allocated to various programs to ensure continuity of funding, especially if the member state getting help from EU funds is required to match this funding at national level.

The amount changes because it's based on how well the UK economy is doing, in the same way our EU payments are calculated.

Is this the 100 Billion euro invoice? I'm not sure they have presented us with any such invoice, merely shouted from the rooftops that they want a lot of money.

Our net payment is around euro10B a year, so this seems like the EU want ten years worth of payments from us, not the current 3-year left funding period.

Cape Blue Oct 13th 2017 3:09 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12360196)
Why does the EU have to make any proposals.
It is not the one leaving.

As each day passes the claim that the EU needs the UK more than we need it proves to be just more brexit waffle.
Both sides know exactly what the true figure to be paid is.
Both sides know that the only solution regarding the NI border is status quo.

Because the EU is the one wanting the money - if you want some money from someone it's pretty normal to tell them how much money it is you want and why.

Otherwise the UK position can just be a zero divorce bill, after all the UK has paid the second highest amount for all the infrastructure built around the EU countries and therefore owns its share of the roads and rail in Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ireland etc, let alone its share of the EU buildings etc.

Annetje Oct 13th 2017 3:27 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12360225)
Can you point me to the £ or euro number in that report?

I never said there was a number in the report.

I'm just saying that the EU has produced a ''white paper'' with all the different projects and other obligations the UK agreed to and to which they think the UK should pay their obligations.
Now the UK has to decide whether these projects are indeed agreed by them and whether they think they should pay towards them.
Once the UK has finally examined it under a loupe (they should buy a bigger one ...) I assume they will start putting numbers towards them.

At the speed the UK is acting on this paper, I guess the final figure will be agreed somewhere the end of next year (maybe).

Seems logical to me.

Cape Blue Oct 13th 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Annetje (Post 12360244)
I never said there was a number in the report.

I'm just saying that the EU has produced a ''white paper'' with all the different projects and other obligations the UK agreed to and to which they think the UK should pay their obligations.
Now the UK has to decide whether these projects are indeed agreed by them and whether they think they should pay towards them.
Once the UK has finally examined it under a loupe (they should buy a bigger one ...) I assume they will start putting numbers towards them.

At the speed the UK is acting on this paper, I guess the final figure will be agreed somewhere the end of next year (maybe).

Seems logical to me.

I see, when macliam was suggesting the EU had not put a number to it and you replied I assumed you were suggesting there was a detailed number, my apologies.

So the EU have not given a costed detailed breakdown for what they want then, just a list of current projects with no £ next to them. Bit strange to leave the actual costs off the list isn't it?

Annetje Oct 13th 2017 4:06 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12360265)
I see, when macliam was suggesting the EU had not put a number to it and you replied I assumed you were suggesting there was a detailed number, my apologies.

So the EU have not given a costed detailed breakdown for what they want then, just a list of current projects with no £ next to them. Bit strange to leave the actual costs off the list isn't it?

This is from an article from August.

At next week’s round of talks, according to the three senior officials spoken to by POLITICO, Brussels expects U.K. Brexit Secretary David Davis to provide precise details on which obligations in the EU budget it is willing to pay for — in short, a methodology for calculating the bill. Although Davis has acknowledged that Britain has financial obligations to the EU, which need to be resolved as part of the withdrawal process, a methodology is something the U.K. has thus far pointedly refused to provide.

“This is not about numbers, but the Brits need to explain, on the one hand, that they have certain obligations but also what they are. Otherwise, the whole process becomes nonsensical,” said one of the diplomats who spoke on the condition of anonymity. “They need to move the ball at least ten yards down the field.”

Brussels to UK: Give us clarity on divorce bill or Brexit talks will stall – POLITICO

I think the problem now is that : the ball is LOST !!!
:confused::confused::confused:

Novocastrian Oct 13th 2017 4:10 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12360265)
So the EU have not given a costed detailed breakdown for what they want then, just a list of current projects with no £ next to them. Bit strange to leave the actual costs off the list isn't it?

The actual costs don't need to be listed. The UK, as a member of the EU, has full access to details of EU budgetary expenditures, past, present and committed for the rest of the budget cycle as well as full access to its own proportionate contributions.

They probably have a calculator to add up the sums, or on current form, an abacus.

Former Lancastrian Oct 13th 2017 4:16 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12360287)
The actual costs don't need to be listed. The UK, as a member of the EU, has full access to details of EU budgetary expenditures, past, present and committed for the rest of the budget cycle as well as full access to its own proportionate contributions.

They probably have a calculator to add up the sums, or on current form, an abacus.

Perhaps they got rid off the guy/gal who used the Abacus as they were a foreigner.

EMR Oct 13th 2017 4:33 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
The Great repeal bill is being delayed due to the threat of rebellion from pro brexit and anti HenryV111 procedure Tories.
More egg on Mays face.

Novocastrian Oct 13th 2017 4:56 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12360293)
Perhaps they got rid off the guy/gal who used the Abacus as they were a foreigner.

Probably muslim too.

Golden Years Oct 13th 2017 4:57 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12360287)
The actual costs don't need to be listed. The UK, as a member of the EU, has full access to details of EU budgetary expenditures, past, present and committed for the rest of the budget cycle as well as full access to its own proportionate contributions.

They probably have a calculator to add up the sums, or on current form, an abacus.

Some of those "costs" are contingent liabilities.
Why should the UK pay a lump sum for future pension payments when the employees may cease to be eligible. Why not simply cover the cost as it occurs?
Similarly, loan guarantees should only create an obligation if the borrower defaults, not paid by the UK up front.
Does the details of past budgetary cycles show how much the UK contributed to continuing EU assets such as buildings? How much of that investment should be used as an offset?

EMR Oct 13th 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12360347)
Some of those "costs" are contingent liabilities.
Why should the UK pay a lump sum for future pension payments when the employees may cease to be eligible. Why not simply cover the cost as it occurs?
Similarly, loan guarantees should only create an obligation if the borrower defaults, not paid by the UK up front.
Does the details of past budgetary cycles show how much the UK contributed to continuing EU assets such as buildings? How much of that investment should be used as an offset?

You got all this information from where ?

37100 Oct 13th 2017 5:02 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12360230)
Is this the 100 Billion euro invoice? I'm not sure they have presented us with any such invoice, merely shouted from the rooftops that they want a lot of money.

Our net payment is around euro10B a year, so this seems like the EU want ten years worth of payments from us, not the current 3-year left funding period.

They also want any future pension liabilities. N.B. I'm not saying that this justifies the invoice.

Novocastrian Oct 13th 2017 5:03 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12360347)
Some of those "costs" are contingent liabilities.
Why should the UK pay a lump sum for future pension payments when the employees may cease to be eligible. Why not simply cover the cost as it occurs?
Similarly, loan guarantees should only create an obligation if the borrower defaults, not paid by the UK up front.
Does the details of past budgetary cycles show how much the UK contributed to continuing EU assets such as buildings? How much of that investment should be used as an offset?

I've no problem with your points here (apart from the last one, to which the answer is "yes". It sounds like a reasonable set of things for negotiation. Do you know why the UK haven't so far bothered?


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