British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

DaveLovesDee Oct 13th 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Annetje (Post 12360087)

I can see it now. The Royal Yacht Britannia, sponsored by [insert names and logos here).

macliam Oct 13th 2017 12:47 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12359992)
One reason why the EU cannot simply give the UK all it wants on any verbal assurances alone is known as "moral hazard". The UK has repeatedly exhibited the will to change its mind abruptly and without regard to any of its obligations. There is no reason to believe that whatever deal is agreed, that the UK will live up to whatever it agrees to.

It's worth pointing out that the world is in fact watching the UK with interest. If the UK refuses to live up to its obligations, you can expect further declines in credit rating. And as the UK appears to be depending on credit ("other people's money", "the kindness of strangers") for its future, its credit rating will have significant impact on the UK's ability to acquire external funding at sustainable cost.

As a neutral observer, it's also worth pointing out that the EU has not (or cannot) present a bill for the UKs obligations. They have not said you owe x, because of a+b+c - they have just said "How much are you prepared to pay?", bandied about global figures with no breakdown and then complained that the UK has made no progress. This, in the context of the EUs inability to balance it's budget or to provide audited accounts, suggests an inability (or unwillingness) in the EU to control its own finances allied with a realization that finances are about to get a lot tighter.

The bank doesn't say to you "How much do you think you owe us?", does it.

Garbatellamike Oct 13th 2017 12:56 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Annetje (Post 12360087)

OMG - can none of these people do basic arithmetic????

mrken30 Oct 13th 2017 1:04 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12359738)
Not usually a fan of Giles Fraser, but this piece explains part of the Brexit vote. The disaffected part.

The Guardian: Still puzzled by the Brexit vote? Take yourself off to Blakenall Heath.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lakenall-heath

They will be the first to complain when fags and beer goes up and their benefits get cut. Then again, maybe thefts of those two items will increase, or more illegal imports.

Annetje Oct 13th 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12360118)
As a neutral observer, it's also worth pointing out that the EU has not (or cannot) present a bill for the UKs obligations. They have not said you owe x, because of a+b+c - they have just said "How much are you prepared to pay?", bandied about global figures with no breakdown and then complained that the UK has made no progress. This, in the context of the EUs inability to balance it's budget or to provide audited accounts, suggests an inability (or unwillingness) in the EU to control its own finances allied with a realization that finances are about to get a lot tighter.

The bank doesn't say to you "How much do you think you owe us?", does it.

Sorry, I believe the EU has presented a position paper a while ago which DD is ''examining'' line by line.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...ement_en_2.pdf


Concerning the audited accounts, plenty proof to find that every account since 2007 has been signed off.

Annetje Oct 13th 2017 1:20 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike (Post 12360123)
OMG - can none of these people do basic arithmetic????

Are you talking to me ?

DaveLovesDee Oct 13th 2017 1:31 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12360118)
As a neutral observer, it's also worth pointing out that the EU has not (or cannot) present a bill for the UKs obligations. They have not said you owe x, because of a+b+c - they have just said "How much are you prepared to pay?", bandied about global figures with no breakdown and then complained that the UK has made no progress.

The EU is presenting us with an invoice based on what the UK government were paying towards EU-wide programs during the current funding period (which I think is 2014-2020). Most of these funds will have been allocated to various programs to ensure continuity of funding, especially if the member state getting help from EU funds is required to match this funding at national level.

The amount changes because it's based on how well the UK economy is doing, in the same way our EU payments are calculated.


This, in the context of the EUs inability to balance it's budget or to provide audited accounts, suggests an inability (or unwillingness) in the EU to control its own finances allied with a realization that finances are about to get a lot tighter.
It's accounts have been audited and passed for the last ten years.


The bank doesn't say to you "How much do you think you owe us?", does it.
A bank is not the best simile.

Consider this. You get a fancy mobile phone on contract. Part-way through the contract, you decide you want to end the contract. The phone contract provider expects you to pay the remaining amount of your contract.


If you cancel before the minimum contract term is up, you'll have to pay an early termination fee.

In most cases these fees are very high. For instance, if you signed up to an 18-month contract and want to cancel in the second month, you might have to pay 16 months' worth of fees.
Do you want to? No, you don't, but you signed a legally-enforceable contract. Take responsibility for what you owe.

Garbatellamike Oct 13th 2017 1:31 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Annetje (Post 12360140)
Are you talking to me ?

No

DaveLovesDee Oct 13th 2017 1:33 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike (Post 12360123)
OMG - can none of these people do basic arithmetic????

They want the yacht so they can wine, dine and impress their future employers.

Garbatellamike Oct 13th 2017 1:43 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12360151)
They want the yacht so they can wine, dine and impress their future employers.

You are probably right and it's only tax payers money.................

macliam Oct 13th 2017 1:59 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12360146)

Not by external auditors and with material errors noted on expenditure....... As someone who remains a citizen of an EU state, I see financial control is one of the areas of the EU which needs improvement.

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12360146)
A bank is not the best simile.

.......perhaps not - but nor is a contract, because a contract includes explicit charges for early termination, etc. According to UK sources, this is not the case with EU funding.

I am not saying that the UK does not have a responsibility to pay what it has agreed to pay - just that it is not for the UK to assess that and "offer" the payment. As with the Irish border question, the EU expect the UK side to come up with suggestions that they can then pick apart. This is a poor way to negotiate, but a good way to burn time and achieve little.

DaveLovesDee Oct 13th 2017 2:03 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike (Post 12360165)
You are probably right and it's only tax payers money.................

I thought the article suggested it would be built with private funds. Maybe it'll be the Virgin Britannia.......

EMR Oct 13th 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12360185)
Not by external auditors and with material errors noted on expenditure.......
.......perhaps not - but nor is a contract, because a contract includes explicit charges for early termination, etc. According to UK sources, this is not the case with EU funding.

I am not saying that the UK does not have a responsibility to pay what it has agreed to pay - just that it is not for the UK to assess that and "offer" the payment. As with the Irish border question, the EU expect the UK side to come up with suggestions that they can then pick apart. This is a poor way to negotiate, but a good way to burn time and achieve little.

Why does the EU have to make any proposals.
It is not the one leaving.
As each day passes the claim that the EU needs the UK more than we need it proves to be just more brexit waffle.
Both sides know exactly what the true figure to be paid is.
Both sides know that the only solution regarding the NI border is status quo.

DaveLovesDee Oct 13th 2017 2:11 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12360185)
Not by external auditors and with material errors noted on expenditure....... As someone who remains a citizen of an EU state, I see financial control is one of the areas of the EU which needs improvement.
.......perhaps not - but nor is a contract, because a contract includes explicit charges for early termination, etc. According to UK sources, this is not the case with EU funding.

From my previous link


In fact, the European Court of Auditors has signed off on the EU budget every year since 2007.

Failure to do so before this has much to do with the way the EU budget is audited. In 2006, John Bourn, then comptroller and auditor general at the UK’s National Audit Office, said he too would have been unable to sign off the UK’s accounts if he had been required to audit them in the same way as the ECA does. That was because the year before he had issued a qualified opinion on 13 of the government’s 500 accounts (22).

Eurosceptics, in their hurry to condemn the EU, confuse the auditors’ seal of approval with something called the “estimated error rate”. This is an estimate of the total money the EU should not have paid out because it was “not used fully in accordance with EU rules”.
It appears then that the UK accounts seemed to be audited to a lower standard than the EU's in some years.


I am not saying that the UK does not have a responsibility to pay what it has agreed to pay - just that it is not for the UK to assess that and "offer" the payment. As with the Irish border question, the EU expect the UK side to come up with suggestions that they can then pick apart. This is a poor way to negotiate, but a good way to burn time and achieve little.
As has already been said, the EU made a lengthy proposal which the UK rejected parts of, and is going over line-by-line over the rest.

I have a simple proposal. Stop Brexit.

macliam Oct 13th 2017 2:23 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12360196)
Why does the EU have to make any proposals.
It is not the one leaving.
As each day passes the claim that the EU needs the UK more than we need it proves to be just more brexit waffle.
Both sides know exactly what the true figure to be paid is.
Both sides know that the only solution regarding the NI border is status quo.

.....because, strangely, that's what happens in negotiations. otherwise it's just a stand-off.

I believe, on some levels, the EU has been beneficial to all EU states.
However, I do not believe a federal EU is, or ever will be, a viable proposition.
I believe the EU needs substantial reform to undo the errors of the past.
I believe the UK leaving reduces the chance of a reformed EU.
I believe the UK leaving will exascerbate the financial issues of the EU.
I believe the UK will pay a heavy price for leaving the EU.
I believe the EU commission is more concerned with pushing its own agenda than undertaking reforms to reduce wastage and inefficiency.
- so, overall, I think the UK leaving is a problem for all sides.


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