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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

DaveLovesDee Oct 11th 2017 10:07 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mrken30 (Post 12358292)
I don't see why Europe should have to pay MEP pensions, once the UK leaves the EU.

As their former employer, the EU would be required to unless it does a BHS.....

Assanah Oct 11th 2017 11:43 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12358478)

There are no plans to change the Common Travel Area so UK and Irish citizens will continue after Brexit to be able to travel, live and work in each others country. Most trade will go through ports which are or will be equipped to deal with cross border trade. The volume of trade across the Eire/Ulster border is very small and could be easily monitored electronically.

Ireland is part of the EU not the UK. The EU border has to be protected and closed. So if the common travel area is to be maintained there has to be checks between people traveling from England to Northern Ireland. So the people of NI will work for the EU and control who enters EU territory via the UK. That would be acceptable alternative with EU borders protected.

DaveLovesDee Oct 11th 2017 12:37 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12358529)
Ireland is part of the EU not the UK. The EU border has to be protected and closed. So if the common travel area is to be maintained there has to be checks between people traveling from England to Northern Ireland. So the people of NI will work for the EU and control who enters EU territory via the UK. That would be acceptable alternative with EU borders protected.

And which will give NI politics nightmares, with some politicians looking to re-unite the two Irelands A Re-United Ireland after nearly 100 years.

macliam Oct 11th 2017 12:43 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12358340)
What don't you understand about the end of the empire? Ireland is not your colony. The Ireland-Uk border is btw also a border of the EU. The EU is also not a British colony. So the border will be closed and protected. You will show your passports and visas and you will be polite and respectful, following Irish and EU laws when you cross the border into foreign territory. Your trucks will wait for inspection and show all necessary papers, deal with all the extras red tape that Brexit will bring, pay all the extra costs the Brexit will bring before they will cross into EU territory.

I'd rather you also kept your nose out of Irish matters, because your view is as twisted as the original. Yes, the Republic will remain an EU member unless and until the people of Ireland decide otherwise. Yes, this means that the border with NI will be an EU border. So, if treated like any other external border, it would be closed and policed.

BUT, as has been pointed out, the situation between the UK and the Republic is not like any other in the EU. The rights of free movement existed before the EU and any change would be resisted. HOWEVER, the CTA is the smaller elephant in the room. Given the history of the last 50 years and longer, the border is has far more significance. Cross-border trade is important to both sides and the open border is a key component of the still-fragile peace between the communities in NI. As a citizen of the Republic, I don't want to see anything that re-ignites the tragic events of the latter C20th or threatens equality of treatment for all communities in NI. THAT is the problem.

Given that NI voted remain, I can't help but wonder if this is some leverage for wider political change in NI, but again, such leverage would be unpopular amongst the loyalist community and a threat to the current peace. In this, I think the reported attitude of the EU is less than helpful, as both sides need to work together to achieve a workable solution. Sitting back to await a UK proposal and playing ping-pong will only aggravate the problem.

Red Eric Oct 11th 2017 1:16 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12358478)
Your mis-interpretation of the Great Repeal Bill is a real straw man but as far as the ECJ is concerned I don't understand why people who move to another country feel they should take their legal structure with them. Perhaps the solution is two fold, have a joint ECJ-Supreme Court final arbiter for EU nationals who are already in the UK and then any arriving after Brexit have to make do with the same final arbiter as UK nationals. Bureaucratic but workable and the numbers affected by the joint body would naturally decline.

Talking of straw men, there's another one right there.

Nobody has suggested that post Brexit, EU nationals moving to the UK (or UK nationals to the EU) should have the protection of EU law and therefore the ECJ. The matter of what rights those people might have has as yet to be raised.

The sticking points at the moment all relate to the cut-off date and to what rights the UK wishes to remove from those who are already settled (ie with a full 5 years already under the belt) or moved before it and to who should adjudicate on whether the UK is adhering to the terms of that specific agreement further down the line. Clearly, it cannot be the UK which decides on that.

Golden Years Oct 11th 2017 4:31 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12358484)
You are forgetting the EU citizens who also live in Ireland and travel freely between the two countries.
Or those in years to come who arrive in Ireland and then onto the UK.
Nice to see you realise that the UK cannot close the Irish border.
You really do need to look at the value of cross border trade before making even more silly statements.

So, before I make even more "silly" mistakes, what is the value of the Republic's trade with the UK that moves across the Ulster land border?

The other EU citizens to which you refer will still be able to travel freely between the two countries but will not be able to work in the UK, unlike Irish citizens, without a work permit. As for immigration control, the Republic is, like the UK, not subject to Schengen so everybody arriving into that country is monitored and the Irish and British authorities have an established system of co-operation that will continue after Brexit.

Golden Years Oct 11th 2017 4:37 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12358529)
Ireland is part of the EU not the UK. The EU border has to be protected and closed. So if the common travel area is to be maintained there has to be checks between people traveling from England to Northern Ireland. So the people of NI will work for the EU and control who enters EU territory via the UK. That would be acceptable alternative with EU borders protected.

The Common Travel Area includes the Republic of Ireland, Ulster, Scotland, Wales and England.
Free movement between those countries by citizens of those countries will continue.

Golden Years Oct 11th 2017 4:40 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12358580)
Talking of straw men, there's another one right there.

Nobody has suggested that post Brexit, EU nationals moving to the UK (or UK nationals to the EU) should have the protection of EU law and therefore the ECJ. The matter of what rights those people might have has as yet to be raised.

The sticking points at the moment all relate to the cut-off date and to what rights the UK wishes to remove from those who are already settled (ie with a full 5 years already under the belt) or moved before it and to who should adjudicate on whether the UK is adhering to the terms of that specific agreement further down the line. Clearly, it cannot be the UK which decides on that.

Who should decide?

Novocastrian Oct 11th 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12358729)
So, before I make even more "silly" mistakes, what is the value of the Republic's trade with the UK that moves across the Ulster land border?

I haven't a clue, but without a customs border between a post-hard-brexit UK and Eire you can be sure that the value would go through the roof what with all the non-EU rules conforming crap entering the EU by the open back door.

Unfortunately a hard border between NI and Eire would breach the Good Friday accords.

You'd think someone among the loony leavers would have figured that out for themselves, wouldn't you?

iano Oct 11th 2017 5:22 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
I don't know, admittedly I could be over-egging this, but the longer this goes on the more there is a sense of foreboding, of civil unrest.

Seriously.

Red Eric Oct 11th 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12358740)
Who should decide?

To my mind, the answer should unequivocally be the ECJ and it's only because May took the hardline Brexiters' stance at the outset that she's now having to fudge some sort of honourable get-out.

It ought to have been perfectly possible to persuade the nation that on legacy matters, of course the UK would agree to be bound by that court's decisions.

However, she will no doubt get agreement on a different court which will be influenced by the ECJ's rulings - possibly the EFTA court? Whatever it is, it probably won't please those she was trying to appease in the first place.

Garbatellamike Oct 11th 2017 5:53 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12358800)
To my mind, the answer should unequivocally be the ECJ and it's only because May took the hardline Brexiters' stance at the outset that she's now having to fudge some sort of honourable get-out.

It ought to have been perfectly possible to persuade the nation that on legacy matters, of course the UK would agree to be bound by that court's decisions.

However, she will no doubt get agreement on a different court which will be influenced by the ECJ's rulings - possibly the EFTA court? Whatever it is, it probably won't please those she was trying to appease in the first place.

I think if it is merely legacy matters you can make a case as you say but as ever the devil will be in the detail of what is defined as legacy. The idea of a foreign court over ruling a sovreign court will be difficult for many to agree to.

EMR Oct 11th 2017 7:40 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12358736)
The Common Travel Area includes the Republic of Ireland, Ulster, Scotland, Wales and England.
Free movement between those countries by citizens of those countries will continue.

Was a vote to leave the EU a vote to end freedom of movement from EU members.
Eire is an EU member.
Not thought that one out did you.

SultanOfSwing Oct 11th 2017 7:46 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12358898)
Was a vote to leave the EU a vote to end freedom of movement from EU members.
Eire is an EU member.
Not thought that one out did you.

I am to understand that the CTA was to be preserved, stated by both the British and Irish governments. The de facto border between Ireland and the UK would be enforced at airports and ports, but the land border between NI and Ireland would remain open.

To close the border with Ireland would be a flagrant disregard of the Good Friday Agreement and the covenant put in place between the British government and the people of Northern Ireland in 1998.

Even the ****wits in the DUP agree the border should not be closed, which should tell you something right away.

EMR Oct 11th 2017 8:12 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12358905)
I am to understand that the CTA was to be preserved, stated by both the British and Irish governments. The de facto border between Ireland and the UK would be enforced at airports and ports, but the land border between NI and Ireland would remain open.

To close the border with Ireland would be a flagrant disregard of the Good Friday Agreement and the covenant put in place between the British government and the people of Northern Ireland in 1998.

Even the ****wits in the DUP agree the border should not be closed, which should tell you something right away.

No problems with freedom of movement remaining with an EU member and all citizens of other EU members who enter the UK via NI.
There is no border control between the North and mainland UK .


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