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Post EU Referendum

Post EU Referendum

Old Oct 7th 2017, 12:35 pm
  #22876  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
What did you mean then?
do you really not understand the difference between a single market and the Single Market?
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 12:39 pm
  #22877  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
Depends upon your constituency. I would vote tactically against the Tory.

In this constituency it's a bit confusing. It's traditionally been Tory then LibDem then Labour, in fact the last non-Tory was a LibDem so I think I was justified in voting LibDem last time. Unfortunately the LibDems had lost so much ground due to the Con/Lib coalition, they came a bad third.

I don't know that I can bring myself to vote Labour as things are, I would do so if they had a soft-or-no Brexit position.

I believe that a second referendum is justified. One dressed as an acceptance or rejection the final deal would do the job although in reality it would be a re-run.

I'm with Alan Sugar on this...
good point although I'm with Shard and would like people to vote for candidates on principle rather than indulge in tactical voting
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 12:43 pm
  #22878  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
It's not exactly a rerun though. The first was an expression of interest, before any real facts were produced, the second would be an informed decision. I think that reality needs to be spelt out, rather than let the europhobes paint it as a new conspiracy.
To us - we who want to remain - it will be as you say, an informed decision based upon facts that have become apparent as we explore the realities of leaving.

For Brexiteers it will be seen and portrayed as 'the establishment elite' holding a vote until we proles 'get it right'.

And, believe me, if the Brexiteer comments on newspaper articles and forums are representative of their feelings in real life, things would get very ugly.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 12:45 pm
  #22879  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike View Post
good point although I'm with Shard and would like people to vote for candidates on principle rather than indulge in tactical voting
I would like MPs to reflect the views of those who voted for them
E.G. an MP in a remain area should vote against brexit rather than follow the party line and vice versa OF course.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 1:04 pm
  #22880  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post

And, believe me, if the Brexiteer comments on newspaper articles and forums are representative of their feelings in real life, things would get very ugly.


I wouldn't worry about that they'll be outnumbered by Momentum thugs and Mahatma McCluskey's flying bullys, sorry pickets, so they can be intimidated out of ugliness
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 2:22 pm
  #22881  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas View Post
It's perhaps a good thing to be inconsistent - I remember some recent research about why facts don't change our minds, something to do with the way our brains are wired.
Thanks. I probably didn't get my point across very well - Mike's certainly had a field day with it but in fact he'd have to delve a good deal deeper than that to get an example I'd acknowledge. There's nothing at all inconsistent to my mind about being critical over the actions of the Commission on one matter and having confidence in them or applauding them over another, unrelated matter. Happens all the time for me. What would be inconsistent would be to both criticise and praise on the same or a very closely related matter, which I certainly don't remember having done, although I do occasionally find myself conflicted in a similar manner over other issues at various times, depending on the context. I'm not saying what they are, though
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 2:59 pm
  #22882  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

How May was duped by Trump on trade

http://flip.it/7gWMwX
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 3:02 pm
  #22883  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
I, a lapsed Tory, would vote for Labour if they had a determined soft-brexit or preferably no-Brexit position.

As it is I will vote for LibDems.
Likewise (ex Tory now voting Libdem).
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 3:12 pm
  #22884  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by mrken30 View Post
How May was duped by Trump on trade

http://flip.it/7gWMwX
Trump's support for Brexit was just part of his strategy to weaken America's trade competitors.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 4:05 pm
  #22885  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Thanks. I probably didn't get my point across very well - Mike's certainly had a field day with it but in fact he'd have to delve a good deal deeper than that to get an example I'd acknowledge. There's nothing at all inconsistent to my mind about being critical over the actions of the Commission on one matter and having confidence in them or applauding them over another, unrelated matter. Happens all the time for me. What would be inconsistent would be to both criticise and praise on the same or a very closely related matter, which I certainly don't remember having done, although I do occasionally find myself conflicted in a similar manner over other issues at various times, depending on the context. I'm not saying what they are, though
Eric you already done enough acknowledging for a decade or 2 so I won't try delving
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 5:17 pm
  #22886  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
To us - we who want to remain - it will be as you say, an informed decision based upon facts that have become apparent as we explore the realities of leaving.

For Brexiteers it will be seen and portrayed as 'the establishment elite' holding a vote until we proles 'get it right'.

And, believe me, if the Brexiteer comments on newspaper articles and forums are representative of their feelings in real life, things would get very ugly.
There are some hardcore Brexiters that simply are conspiracy theorists, and will never accept a second referendum, let alone a non-EU Britain. But these must be the minority amongst the Brexit crowd. Many more don't have particularly strong or reasoned views (on both sides) and just went with what they thought on the day. Others had strong views based on the bus or false assurances on single market or immigration. As the whole can of Brexit worms is opened up, it makes sense to attempt to change public opinion on whether Brexit is the best path or not. It's important to dispel the "manipulation myth" it's not multiple votes until the "right answer" it's one more vote. A confirmation vote. Indeed, it could be pitched as a challenge to the Brexit camp, that they're so confident of the "will of the people" that there was a "clear majority" why not reconfirm it. If they are so sure it is the right action, and do sure that the majority of the country is behind, permit a final approval. I think for Remainers such as myself, it would provide huge peace of mind even if it were to confirm Brexit. I would at least respect the legitimacy of the decision, despite disagreeing with it.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 5:42 pm
  #22887  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
There are some hardcore Brexiters that simply are conspiracy theorists, and will never accept a second referendum, let alone a non-EU Britain. But these must be the minority amongst the Brexit crowd. Many more don't have particularly strong or reasoned views (on both sides) and just went with what they thought on the day. Others had strong views based on the bus or false assurances on single market or immigration. As the whole can of Brexit worms is opened up, it makes sense to attempt to change public opinion on whether Brexit is the best path or not. It's important to dispel the "manipulation myth" it's not multiple votes until the "right answer" it's one more vote. A confirmation vote. Indeed, it could be pitched as a challenge to the Brexit camp, that they're so confident of the "will of the people" that there was a "clear majority" why not reconfirm it. If they are so sure it is the right action, and do sure that the majority of the country is behind, permit a final approval. I think for Remainers such as myself, it would provide huge peace of mind even if it were to confirm Brexit. I would at least respect the legitimacy of the decision, despite disagreeing with it.


What has always amazed me is the Government quoting ''the will of the people''.

Do they really not realize the country is split in 2 ?
Have they completely forgotten about the 48 % ?
Do they really think the whole country wants a ''full English Brexit'' ?
Didn't they notice all the lying going on during the campaign and hence have doubt about the outcome ?
Will they accept that the outcome of their Brexit might not be what the ''people wanted'' ?

I just cannot comprehend what is going on and neither can most of the EU.
On such an important matter, accepting that 52 % represent the people of the UK is rather small minded.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 5:48 pm
  #22888  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post


What has always amazed me is the Government quoting ''the will of the people''.

Do they really not realize the country is split in 2 ?
Have they completely forgotten about the 48 % ?
Do they really think the whole country wants a ''full English Brexit'' ?
Didn't they notice all the lying going on during the campaign and hence have doubt about the outcome ?
Will they accept that the outcome of their Brexit might not be what the ''people wanted'' ?

I just cannot comprehend what is going on and neither can most of the EU.
On such an important matter, accepting that 52 % represent the people of the UK is rather small minded.
As has been said many times had the vote been 52/ 48 remain the brexit campaign, Farage, the right wing of the Tory party , opportunists like Johnson, Gove, Fox et al would have turned purple with rage and demanded an immediate 're run.
After all how could 52% remain be considered the will of the people.!
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 6:15 pm
  #22889  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post


What has always amazed me is the Government quoting ''the will of the people''.

Do they really not realize the country is split in 2 ?
Have they completely forgotten about the 48 % ?
Do they really think the whole country wants a ''full English Brexit'' ?
Didn't they notice all the lying going on during the campaign and hence have doubt about the outcome ?
Will they accept that the outcome of their Brexit might not be what the ''people wanted'' ?

I just cannot comprehend what is going on and neither can most of the EU.
On such an important matter, accepting that 52 % represent the people of the UK is rather small minded.
Yes, it's really quite disconcerting. I remember when May came out on the steps on the 24th and I was expecting some kind of middle ground approach, and she took the result as absolute mandate to Brexit. She acted like she was UKIP. I understand when Brexiters take the hardline, but not the government. There is a huge number of citizens against leaving, not mention much of the youth.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 6:17 pm
  #22890  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
As has been said many times had the vote been 52/ 48 remain the brexit campaign, Farage, the right wing of the Tory party , opportunists like Johnson, Gove, Fox et al would have turned purple with rage and demanded an immediate 're run.
After all how could 52% remain be considered the will of the people.!
The difference there is that a Remain vote does not upset the status quo. They would be within there rights to ask for another referendum, just as Scotland sometimes considers doing.
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