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Post EU Referendum

Post EU Referendum

Old Oct 7th 2017, 10:08 am
  #22861  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I fear you misunderstood the comment - it was specifically with reference to this matter, on which we have very clearly been in disagreement and what I thought would be likely to happen if I repeated myself. You do indeed occasionally make it clear that you agree with me.
aha my misunderstanding then - sorry
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 11:14 am
  #22862  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I don't actually see any point in Labour sacrificing itself on the altar of single market membership in order to satisfy Tory remainers, who wouldn't vote for them anyway
This lapsed Tory remainer would, most definitely. Sorry, Vince.

Many of the European radical left favour reforming and democratising the EU from within, and support free movement etc and considering Varoufakis had Corbyn's ear recently, hopefully the cards he's keeping very close to the chest will prove an interesting reveal.

Continuing single market membership helps pay for any positive change in domestic policy.

Last edited by iano; Oct 7th 2017 at 11:18 am.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 11:18 am
  #22863  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I don't think I've ever made any great claims to being a model of consistency
It's perhaps a good thing to be inconsistent - I remember some recent research about why facts don't change our minds, something to do with the way our brains are wired.

I feel I am inconsistent too - I would like the UK to Brexit but I have lost confidence in this government.

Realistically something needs to change.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 11:21 am
  #22864  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas View Post
I would like the UK to Brexit but I have lost confidence in this government.

Realistically something needs to change.
Change of leader, or government, in your view ?
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 11:24 am
  #22865  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas View Post
It's perhaps a good thing to be inconsistent - I remember some recent research about why facts don't change our minds, something to do with the way our brains are wired.

I feel I am inconsistent too - I would like the UK to Brexit but I have lost confidence in this government.

Realistically something needs to change.
I think the debate needs to change. First and foremost the notion that a decision taken on 23.6.16 is CAST IN STONE and reliably reflects the desires of the country. That notion should be questioned not treated as sacrosanct. Far too many political leaders are subverting their own beliefs out of political fear. Unhealthy. And leads to inferior outcomes.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 11:27 am
  #22866  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by iano View Post

Continuing single market membership helps pay for any positive change in domestic policy.
a single market rather than the Single Market would also do this - no?
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 11:28 am
  #22867  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

I, a lapsed Tory, would vote for Labour if they had a determined soft-brexit or preferably no-Brexit position.

As it is I will vote for LibDems.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 11:34 am
  #22868  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
I, a lapsed Tory, would vote for Labour if they had a determined soft-brexit or preferably no-Brexit position.

As it is I will vote for LibDems.
Tempting but don't you think that's wasting your vote
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 11:45 am
  #22869  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike View Post
a single market rather than the Single Market would also do this - no?
Assuming you mean the UK market alone operating outside of the EU customs union and internal market, with sterling weak, higher inflation, high levels of domestic debt, loss of FDI, diminished labour force and smaller market for goods/services, not to mention the costs of the proposed re-nationalisation programme, probably not as effectively.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 11:48 am
  #22870  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I think the debate needs to change. First and foremost the notion that a decision taken on 23.6.16 is CAST IN STONE and reliably reflects the desires of the country. That notion should be questioned not treated as sacrosanct. Far too many political leaders are subverting their own beliefs out of political fear. Unhealthy. And leads to inferior outcomes.
Fully agree, the 'will of the people' is only advisory in a Parliamentary democracy.

No cojones, any of them, including May..
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 11:54 am
  #22871  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by iano View Post
Assuming you mean the UK market alone operating outside of the EU customs union and internal market, with sterling weak, higher inflation, high levels of domestic debt, loss of FDI, diminished labour force and smaller market for goods/services, not to mention the costs of the proposed re-nationalisation programme, probably not as effectively.
wrong assumption

Last edited by Garbatellamike; Oct 7th 2017 at 12:34 pm.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 11:57 am
  #22872  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike View Post
wrong assumption
What did you mean then?
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 12:01 pm
  #22873  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike View Post
Tempting but don't you think that's wasting your vote
I've voted LD since the Iraq War (the largely pro-war electorate appalled me) as they really mirror my my thinking. Was a bit tragic with Tim Farron at the helm, but I stuck with my principle. With Saint Vince it will be much easier. I don't subscribe to the wasting your vote idea, and wish more people would vote according to their core beliefs.
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 12:09 pm
  #22874  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike View Post
Tempting but don't you think that's wasting your vote
Depends upon your constituency. I would vote tactically against the Tory.

In this constituency it's a bit confusing. It's traditionally been Tory then LibDem then Labour, in fact the last non-Tory was a LibDem so I think I was justified in voting LibDem last time. Unfortunately the LibDems had lost so much ground due to the Con/Lib coalition, they came a bad third.

I don't know that I can bring myself to vote Labour as things are, I would do so if they had a soft-or-no Brexit position.

I believe that a second referendum is justified. One dressed as an acceptance or rejection the final deal would do the job although in reality it would be a re-run.

I'm with Alan Sugar on this...

“I think what happened was – no disrespect to middle England – they didn’t understand what they were voting for. But I tell you what, in five years’ time when it’s all sorted out they are not going to like themselves because it’s going to be an absolute nightmare.”
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Old Oct 7th 2017, 12:30 pm
  #22875  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
Depends

I believe that a second referendum is justified. One dressed as an acceptance or rejection the final deal would do the job although in reality it would be a re-run.

Ithis...
It's not exactly a rerun though. The first was an expression of interest, before any real facts were produced, the second would be an informed decision. I think that reality needs to be spelt out, rather than let the europhobes paint it as a new conspiracy.
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