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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Red Eric Aug 31st 2016 1:34 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12040076)
Explain.

You say Brexit isn't about immigration and then go on to applaud the unofficial Leave campaign which was about virtually nothing else. And it was dishonest.

Outstanding success? Sure, it pushed all the right buttons but it was a disgrace and everybody knows it, even the Leavers who got the result they wanted.

Red Eric Aug 31st 2016 1:39 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12040082)
The problem with your statement is that you do not define what a free trading area is in your view. Where do you draw a line? When is trade free in your view?
When you really think about it is kind of difficult to define what free trade means. Nearly everything is related to trade. Does free trade only mean that there are no customs between the trading partners? Does it mean a harmonization of standards (something the US and the EU want to do with TTIP)? Is trade free if one partner uses slave and child labour? Is trade free if one partner destroys the environment in order to be cheaper? Is trade free when one partner makes strict laws that only apply to imported products?

One example for hurdles to free trade are phyto-sanitary measurements taken by countries with regards to import of foods. Main reason for this should be to insure that all imported foods are safe and healthy. However, these measurements are also used by countries to protect their own food industry. For example the US requires that apples from the EU are inspected before they arrive in the US. The inspection has to be done by an US officer, cost have to be paid by the EU exporters. So European companies have to pay for the flight, board and lodging etc. for the US customs officer to come to the EU and inspect the apples before they can be send to the US. The consequence of this is that Europeans basically don't sell any apples in the US as they simply are to expensive. Is that free trade? If you say no, then what would you do to ensure that EU exporters can sell their apples (which of course have to be safe and healthy). Would you have the US change their laws? What about sovereignty of the US?

If you have a look at NAFTA for example you will notice that it is not only a cooperation in trade but also in environmental issues and free movement of workers. It also uses international courts.

If you have a closer look at the development of EU law you will notice that most laws were made because the EU wanted to ensure freedom of trade. Now you can certainly argue that in some (or maybe a lot) of areas the EU has gone too far but the EU legislation was really about making sure that Europeans can trade with each other without one country getting an unfair competition advantage.
Maybe then one can say that true free trade can only exist in one country - never between countries. And maybe that is also the problem for the EU to draw the line between leaving the member states alone and when to legislate.

:goodpost:

la mancha Aug 31st 2016 1:45 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12040085)
You say Brexit isn't about immigration and then go on to applaud the unofficial Leave campaign which was about virtually nothing else. And it was dishonest.

Outstanding success? Sure, it pushed all the right buttons but it was a disgrace and everybody knows it, even the Leavers who got the result they wanted.

The problems caused by immigration. Can’t you understand that? It is what the people we are discussing voted for. How can something that people have to live with day in and day out be called dishonest when discussed? How can you call it a disgrace? To do that you must call parts of the Remain campaign a disgrace as well.

Contradicting myself? No way. You are looking for something that isn’t there.

Assanah Aug 31st 2016 1:50 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12040064)
That's an interesting article Fred. .

Yes, interesting article. Just wanted to make clear that the Euro is not a German invention. In fact, Germany never wanted the Euro, it wanted to keep its Deutsche Mark. That Germany joined the Euro was the price for the German unification. As far as I remember the Euro is mainly a child of the French.

Red Eric Aug 31st 2016 1:52 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12040103)
The problems caused by immigration. Can’t you understand that? It is what the people we are discussing voted for. How can something that people have to live with day in and day out be called dishonest when discussed? How can you call it a disgrace? To do that you must call parts of the Remain campaign a disgrace as well.

Contradicting myself? No way. You are looking for something that isn’t there.

That is absolutely not the way Farage's campaign was run. It relied on scaremongering and misuse of images and it was very clearly pushing the notion that if the UK didn't leave the EU it would be swamped with Muslims.

You can argue to the contrary all you like but you won't convince me otherwise and I'm not the only person who saw it for what it was.

Besides, you only have to dip into the pre Brexit thread to see it from the most vociferous section of the Leavers on here.

la mancha Aug 31st 2016 1:54 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12040083)
The EU is not in recession unlike some of those markets that brexit claimed will be the future of the UK.
If you really are proud of the racist Banks, Farage campaign then that says more about you than forum etiquette allows.
I do agree with you that those who feel left out did use the vote as a protest but that had nothing to do with the case for leaving or remaining.
What when interviewed did those in the North east etc claim as their reason for voting out it was IMMIGRATION.
They will continue to feel left out , if you are unskilled, lacking qualifications. living where there are few if any job prospects Brexit, this year , next year or in 5 years is not going to change a thing.
There was a recent documentary on the types of work available for the unskilled, unqualified. one was sorting rubbish for min wage plus.
That is their future . or picking fruit, packing for amazon etc etc. until the day come when robotics take over.

I would put money on an even bet that the final free trade agreement with the EU will include an agreement on the free movement of labour.

A quick answer because that is all your post is worth.

I did not say the EU is in recession.

I am proud of the Aaron Banks, Farage campaign that beat all the odds. It was a media masterpiece.

Those whom we are discussing live with the problems caused by immigration. That is what they voted on.

The final free trade agreement may include free movement of labour, for those whom we allow in. That is, those whom we allow in will have all the freedom they have now. I can live with that.

EMR Aug 31st 2016 1:57 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12040103)
The problems caused by immigration. Can’t you understand that? It is what the people we are discussing voted for. How can something that people have to live with day in and day out be called dishonest when discussed? How can you call it a disgrace? To do that you must call parts of the Remain campaign a disgrace as well.

Contradicting myself? No way. You are looking for something that isn’t there.

immigration did not cause the issue that the unskilled, poorly educated, living in areas without the jobs they once did, that is economic progress, past government policies or call it what you will.
Immigration was the excuse that those on the racist fringe of brexit used to win votes.
In the north east which voted No there is not a high immigrant population compared to those areas where there are like London which voted to remain.
But they needed to find an excuse or someone to blame.

The same people who voted NO in those areas are now supporting Corbyn because he says the things they want to hear which like Brexit will do nothing to improve their lives.

EMR Aug 31st 2016 2:01 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12040112)
A quick answer because that is all your post is worth.

I did not say the EU is in recession.

I am proud of the Aaron Banks, Farage campaign that beat all the odds. It was a media masterpiece.

Those whom we are discussing live with the problems caused by immigration. That is what they voted on.

The final free trade agreement may include free movement of labour, for those whom we allow in. That is, those whom we allow in will have all the freedom they have now. I can live with that.

Proud of racist Banks and Farage, did you really mean that.

At least we know what you really think despite your past protestations.

la mancha Aug 31st 2016 2:02 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12040110)
That is absolutely not the way Farage's campaign was run. It relied on scaremongering and misuse of images and it was very clearly pushing the notion that if the UK didn't leave the EU it would be swamped with Muslims.

You can argue to the contrary all you like but you won't convince me otherwise and I'm not the only person who saw it for what it was.

Besides, you only have to dip into the pre Brexit thread to see it from the most vociferous section of the Leavers on here.

I don’t care what you think, I don’t care what others like you think and I don’t care what other Leavers think. I am discussing those in the Midlands and the North who voted and they did not have to think because they live the life every day. Stop crying immigration. It is like an old record.

As for scaremongering…are you talking about the OUT campaign?

Red Eric Aug 31st 2016 2:03 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12040112)
I am proud of the Aaron Banks, Farage campaign that beat all the odds. It was a media masterpiece.

We know - you said.

"Dear Mr Nigel Farage :wub:

Fawn, fawn etc

From your humblest admirer la mancha xx"

:sick:

la mancha Aug 31st 2016 2:05 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
The campaign. I am interested in media advertising, okay?
Still looking for faults?

paulry Aug 31st 2016 2:06 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Fredbargate (Post 12039918)
Did she also ask you to refrain from making insults?

he wasn't listening to that part


Red Eric Aug 31st 2016 2:08 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12040117)
I don’t care what you think, I don’t care what others like you think and I don’t care what other Leavers think. I am discussing those in the Midlands and the North who voted and they did not have to think because they live the life every day. Stop crying immigration. It is like an old record.

It's you who's crying immigration. You're saying it causes problems.

It appears, from polls that were conducted, that those most likely to vote Leave did so not because of problems caused by immigration in the areas where they live but because of the fear of what high levels of immigration might do.

In areas of actual high immigration the vote was generally pro EU.

paulry Aug 31st 2016 2:09 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12040114)
immigration did not cause the issue that the unskilled, poorly educated, living in areas without the jobs they once did, that is economic progress, past government policies or call it what you will.
Immigration was the excuse that those on the racist fringe of brexit used to win votes.
In the north east which voted No there is not a high immigrant population compared to those areas where there are like London which voted to remain.
But they needed to find an excuse or someone to blame.

The same people who voted NO in those areas are now supporting Corbyn because he says the things they want to hear which like Brexit will do nothing to improve their lives.

Sure, London voted remain but the majority of Britons voted to leave. Get over it.

paulry Aug 31st 2016 2:10 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12040125)
It's you who's crying immigration. You're saying it causes problems.

It appears, from polls that were conducted, that those most likely to vote Leave did so not because of problems caused by immigration in the areas where they live but because of the fear of what high levels of immigration might do.

In areas of actual high immigration the vote was generally pro EU.

And here is what it has done

Foreign Correspondent - Last Whites Of The East End : ABC iview


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