British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Wol Aug 31st 2016 10:56 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12039425)
Yet again, a moronic response.

It wasn't about go under xxx circumstances or stay under yyy circumstances.

The vote was to stay or go & go won the vote whether the remainers & remainiacs like it or not.

Maybe some Brexiteers didn't know what Brexit means but the same can be said of the other side of the argument.

Not one of us can see into the future but the fact is the go vote won so go we will no matter how many tantrums the remainiacs throw.

My gut feeling is that probably a majority of those who couldn't be bothered to vote would have gone for the status quo ante. But that is completely irrelevant. Comparing the votes for something with the percentage who actually voted is meaningless. On that basis there's probably never been a legitimate government in any democracy.

EMR Aug 31st 2016 11:01 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Wol (Post 12039960)
MPs are largely in favour of remaining. They did, however, vote massively in favour of the referendum. Which they probably expected - as I did - to be a big "remain" win.

I spent quite a lot of time in Brussels during the late 60s and early 70s. Your slavish adherence to the "four legs good, two legs bad" mindset reminds me very much of the EU in its pre-expansionist paradigm.

You seem to read the Express and Mail a lot more than I or anyone I know. I read the Telegraph, the Grauniad and the SMH fairly regularly. Perhaps all the press is "gutter"?

If the EU had remained a free trading area, as the lies - well documented lies - consistently told us, there would never have been any thought of a referendum. By anyone. Nigel would still have been trading commodities and neither you nor I would have heard of him.

I only read the gutter press headlines as we do our daily shop and the Times for an informed opinion.

It is no longer about the EU but what is best for the UK and that certainly is not reflected in the views of much of the lie ridden and on the fringes racist brexit campaign which influenced many who voted to leave.
It is they and their supporters who want the UK to rush into an exit, have no trade agreement with the EU etc etc, rather like jumping off a sinking ship without a lifebelt.

Wol Aug 31st 2016 11:06 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
I'm beginning to wish I'd never started this thread :sneaky:

Perhaps it's time someone else began another.

Bipat Aug 31st 2016 11:11 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Editha (Post 12039916)
For someone who is obsessed by the subject, you are remarkably badly informed. May supported the Remain campaign. She made her views quite clear. But she did not take an active part in the campaign, probably for career reasons.

Brexit is about immigration for a very large portion of the electorate who voted for it. Research since the referendum has shown that this issue was the driving factor.

Not obsessed just interested in the threads on TIO, and having had qualifications in EU law since 1998 (when already had the view that creeping federalism was happening.)
Theresa May stated that she supported 'Remain' but she never gave forceful views as others did. As I said she was 'keeping her options open'.

Could I suggest you read the speeches of the official 'leave' campaign. Nigel Lawson, Gisela Stewart, the view was that there should be equal admission rules for non-EU and EU migrants.
The votes of the non-EU origin immigrants in the UK was in the same proportion as the rest of the population.
Yes, the campaign was influenced by Nigel Farage who was stirring up the ant-immigrant members of society.

EMR Aug 31st 2016 11:26 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12039975)
Not obsessed just interested in the threads on TIO, and having had qualifications in EU law since 1998 (when already had the view that creeping federalism was happening.)
Theresa May stated that she supported 'Remain' but she never gave forceful views as others did. As I said she was 'keeping her options open'.

Could I suggest you read the speeches of the official 'leave' campaign. Nigel Lawson, Gisela Stewart, the view was that there should be equal admission rules for non-EU and EU migrants.
The votes of the non-EU origin immigrants in the UK was in the same proportion as the rest of the population.
Yes, the campaign was influenced by Nigel Farage who was stirring up the ant-immigrant members of society.

Ask the tens thousands in the deprived north who voted brexit and swung the vote if they had ever heard of Gisela or Nigel.
I doubt if you could find a more than a handfull.
It was not their views that won the campaign it was the lies and racist fringe.
But the damage is done and it is now up to May and the moderates both leavers and remainers to get the best deal for the UK.
Stuff Farage , Fox etc and all those who think like them and were influenced by their views.

Fredbargate Aug 31st 2016 11:53 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Did anyone watch the BBC news at midday UK time,

Interesting comments from Chequers followed by an interview with Joseph Stiglitz

https://www.theguardian.com/business...uro-and-the-eu

DaveLovesDee Aug 31st 2016 11:57 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Wol (Post 12039973)
I'm beginning to wish I'd never started this thread :sneaky:

Perhaps it's time someone else began another.

You can delete it, or ask a moderator to close it.

After all, the title is misleading because we're not post-Brexit, are we?

EMR Aug 31st 2016 12:20 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Fredbargate (Post 12040001)
Did anyone watch the BBC news at midday UK time,

Interesting comments from Chequers followed by an interview with Joseph Stiglitz

https://www.theguardian.com/business...uro-and-the-eu

You mean the comment from May that the UK must make a success of brexit.
By implication not satisy the demands of those who put brexit before the UK, its people, economy etc.

An interesting future awaits, Brazil slipping even deeper into recession, Nigeria , Africas largest economy in recession, growth falling in India.
We will need a free trade agreement with the EU with conditions even more today than pre vote.

Red Eric Aug 31st 2016 1:13 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Fredbargate (Post 12040001)
Did anyone watch the BBC news at midday UK time,

Interesting comments from Chequers followed by an interview with Joseph Stiglitz

https://www.theguardian.com/business...uro-and-the-eu

That's an interesting article Fred. I can't help noticing though, over the past however long we lot have been discussing Brexit and economics, that most Brexiteers have a completely contrary view of what constitutes good economic practice as far as the UK is concerned (look no further than the matters of budget deficit and austerity, for example, to confirm this).

la mancha Aug 31st 2016 1:16 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Old news, I know, but just to answer some on here who are still referring to the past, after all this time some still do not get it, do you? Those living in the Midlands and the North who voted out do not care about Gisela or Lawson or what they said. The only thing they voted for was a better way of life and with the system they have to live within they could not see any change to their life of working in poverty. Along came the referendum and those who we are discussing looked around at their miserable lives within the EU and decided that maybe if they voted for another system their lives would change. That change is about to come. Whether it is a change for the better or worse no one will know until it happens, but for those whom we are discussing, they have nothing now so they cannot be any worse off. That is how they look at things.

As for lie ridden and on the fringes (?) racist Brexit campaign, once again you are refusing to acknowledge the sheer pissed-off feelings of those we are discussing. Brexit is not about immigration. They did not vote out to get rid of all immigrants. They voted out to get rid of the problems of too many immigrants, something you will never acknowledge.

As for Farage and the campaign by Aaron Banks, it was an outstanding success. They were insulted and ridiculed not only by the government but by those like some on here and many in the media. They never stood a chance but they rode the insults and the ridicule because they believed in what they were doing. The people we are discussing saw this and voted accordingly, and justice was served.

Some say the damage is done and we must get the best deal for the UK. I say the damage was done years ago and no one in Brussels wanted to address it. It is about time someone did something.

As for an interesting future awaiting us, I think it in the best of both the EU’s and the UK’s interests to come to a free trade agreement, more so the EU. The Eurozone just cannot sustain another recession.

Bipat Aug 31st 2016 1:20 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12040022)
You mean the comment from May that the UK must make a success of brexit.
By implication not satisy the demands of those who put brexit before the UK, its people, economy etc.

An interesting future awaits, Brazil slipping even deeper into recession, Nigeria , Africas largest economy in recession, growth falling in India.
We will need a free trade agreement with the EU with conditions even more today than pre vote.

India's growth rate has fallen to that of January 2015. Still fastest growing large economy. No problem with trade deal with UK, pre-brexit talks started in July.

Red Eric Aug 31st 2016 1:23 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12040067)
As for lie ridden and on the fringes (?) racist Brexit campaign, once again you are refusing to acknowledge the sheer pissed-off feelings of those we are discussing. Brexit is not about immigration. They did not vote out to get rid of all immigrants. They voted out to get rid of the problems of too many immigrants, something you will never acknowledge.

As for Farage and the campaign by Aaron Banks, it was an outstanding success. They were insulted and ridiculed not only by the government but by those like some on here and many in the media. They never stood a chance but they rode the insults and the ridicule because they believed in what they were doing. The people we are discussing saw this and voted accordingly, and justice was served.

There, right there.

You're contradicting yourself.

la mancha Aug 31st 2016 1:26 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12040072)
There, right there.

You're contradicting yourself.

Explain.

Assanah Aug 31st 2016 1:32 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Wol (Post 12039960)
If the EU had remained a free trading area, as the lies - well documented lies - consistently told us, there would never have been any thought of a referendum. By anyone. Nigel would still have been trading commodities and neither you nor I would have heard of him.

The problem with your statement is that you do not define what a free trading area is in your view. Where do you draw a line? When is trade free in your view?
When you really think about it is kind of difficult to define what free trade means. Nearly everything is related to trade. Does free trade only mean that there are no customs between the trading partners? Does it mean a harmonization of standards (something the US and the EU want to do with TTIP)? Is trade free if one partner uses slave and child labour? Is trade free if one partner destroys the environment in order to be cheaper? Is trade free when one partner makes strict laws that only apply to imported products?

One example for hurdles to free trade are phyto-sanitary measurements taken by countries with regards to import of foods. Main reason for this should be to insure that all imported foods are safe and healthy. However, these measurements are also used by countries to protect their own food industry. For example the US requires that apples from the EU are inspected before they arrive in the US. The inspection has to be done by an US officer, cost have to be paid by the EU exporters. So European companies have to pay for the flight, board and lodging etc. for the US customs officer to come to the EU and inspect the apples before they can be send to the US. The consequence of this is that Europeans basically don't sell any apples in the US as they simply are to expensive. Is that free trade? If you say no, then what would you do to ensure that EU exporters can sell their apples (which of course have to be safe and healthy). Would you have the US change their laws? What about sovereignty of the US?

If you have a look at NAFTA for example you will notice that it is not only a cooperation in trade but also in environmental issues and free movement of workers. It also uses international courts. The partners of NAFTA are also on their way to harmonize their standards - for example their pesticide requirements. So in a way you can say that they are becoming more and more integrated, becoming less independent.

If you have a closer look at the development of EU law you will notice that most laws were made because the EU wanted to ensure freedom of trade. Now you can certainly argue that in some (or maybe a lot) of areas the EU has gone too far but the EU legislation was really about making sure that Europeans can trade with each other without one country getting an unfair competition advantage.
Maybe then one can say that true free trade can only exist in one country - never between countries. And maybe the problem for the EU is to draw the line between leaving the member states alone and when to legislate to ensure free trade.

EMR Aug 31st 2016 1:33 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12040067)
Old news, I know, but just to answer some on here who are still referring to the past, after all this time some still do not get it, do you? Those living in the Midlands and the North who voted out do not care about Gisela or Lawson or what they said. The only thing they voted for was a better way of life and with the system they have to live within they could not see any change to their life of working in poverty. Along came the referendum and those who we are discussing looked around at their miserable lives within the EU and decided that maybe if they voted for another system their lives would change. That change is about to come. Whether it is a change for the better or worse no one will know until it happens, but for those whom we are discussing, they have nothing now so they cannot be any worse off. That is how they look at things.

As for lie ridden and on the fringes (?) racist Brexit campaign, once again you are refusing to acknowledge the sheer pissed-off feelings of those we are discussing. Brexit is not about immigration. They did not vote out to get rid of all immigrants. They voted out to get rid of the problems of too many immigrants, something you will never acknowledge.

As for Farage and the campaign by Aaron Banks, it was an outstanding success. They were insulted and ridiculed not only by the government but by those like some on here and many in the media. They never stood a chance but they rode the insults and the ridicule because they believed in what they were doing. The people we are discussing saw this and voted accordingly, and justice was served.

Some say the damage is done and we must get the best deal for the UK. I say the damage was done years ago and no one in Brussels wanted to address it. It is about time someone did something.

As for an interesting future awaiting us, I think it in the best of both the EU’s and the UK’s interests to come to a free trade agreement, more so the EU. The Eurozone just cannot sustain another recession.

The EU is not in recession unlike some of those markets that brexit claimed will be the future of the UK.
If you really are proud of the racist Banks, Farage campaign then that says more about you than forum etiquette allows.
I do agree with you that those who feel left out did use the vote as a protest but that had nothing to do with the case for leaving or remaining.
What when interviewed did those in the North east etc claim as their reason for voting out it was IMMIGRATION.
They will continue to feel left out , if you are unskilled, lacking qualifications. living where there are few if any job prospects Brexit, this year , next year or in 5 years is not going to change a thing.
There was a recent documentary on the types of work available for the unskilled, unqualified. one was sorting rubbish for min wage plus.
That is their future . or picking fruit, packing for amazon etc etc. until the day come when robotics take over.

I would put money on an even bet that the final free trade agreement with the EU will include an agreement on the free movement of labour.


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