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Post EU Referendum

Post EU Referendum

Old Jul 23rd 2017, 3:29 pm
  #20326  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
1) Yes to some extent, but free movement is an essential freedom of the EU.

2) I can't remember where I originally read that Giscard d'Estaing changed the word because of UK protests, however this gives some idea---

That F-word | The Economist

3) We know that--another poster was suggesting UK FTAs with non-EU countries involved deals regarding movement of people. I pointed out it was not free movement.
An article from 2003, say no more,
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 3:36 pm
  #20327  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
In what way is my interpretation of free movement of EU citizens unorthodox? Are you saying it is the same as movement of citizens between non-EU countries that the UK has trade deals with?
Because on the one hand you're saying that free movement must end and on the other you're saying that there always has been and always will be free movement.

Freedom of movement has a particular meaning in relation to the rights citizens of EU member states have within the territory - and as you at least appeared to acknowledge above, it is not totally without restrictions.

On the other hand, the imposition of requirements for eg the obtaining of a work visa prior to entering a menber state or a minimum salary requirement in excess of the national minimum wage or a requirement in order to obtain permission to remain would be clear violations of those rights.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 3:56 pm
  #20328  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
An article from 2003, say no more,
That is when they were discussing the draft constitution that ended up as the Lisbon Treaty, which we have been discussing!!! The Treaty which is still in force!
Dave/Dee asked for a link to show the wording of the draft had been changed, my link demonstrates this.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 4:09 pm
  #20329  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Because on the one hand you're saying that free movement must end and on the other you're saying that there always has been and always will be free movement.

Freedom of movement has a particular meaning in relation to the rights citizens of EU member states have within the territory - and as you at least appeared to acknowledge above, it is not totally without restrictions.

On the other hand, the imposition of requirements for eg the obtaining of a work visa prior to entering a menber state or a minimum salary requirement in excess of the national minimum wage or a requirement in order to obtain permission to remain would be clear violations of those rights.
You are confirming that movement between countries that has always taken place and will continue with restrictions, as with all countries--is different from free movement and its particular meaning with regards movement and rights between EU countries.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 4:09 pm
  #20330  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
It is not the ECJ that is objected to. It is the increased powers given to the court by the Lisbon Treaty. (There was no vote or referendum at that time.)
Of course there was a vote at that time. In Parliament, voted for overwhelmingly by our elected reps, passed in The Lords by our unelected reps and granted Royal Assent by another unelected rep.

Like you, Stuart Wheeler (a 'kipper) once claimed the government was bound by an election promise to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. He went to the High Court (not the ECJ) and the case was rejected, he even appealed and it was rejected once again. I doubt he keeps banging on about the claim to this day.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 4:10 pm
  #20331  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
That is when they were discussing the draft constitution that ended up as the Lisbon Treaty, which we have been discussing!!! The Treaty which is still in force!
Dave/Dee asked for a link to show the wording of the draft had been changed, my link demonstrates this.
Eurosceptics from countries such as Britain and Denmark blew a gasket on seeing, in the first sentence of the first article, the dread word “federal”,
Mr Giscard d'Estaing insists such fears are overblown. He points out that immediately below the offending F-word, it says that: “the Union shall respect the identities of its Member States”.
If Britain and other Eurosceptic countries cannot get the current draft's federalist language toned down, they may be faced with an unpleasant choice:
Nope, your link hasn't shown the draft language being changed. It demonstrates that some wanted it changed. Unless you can quote something I've missed.

But this is a common thing with you. You misrepresent what people are saying to claim they mean something other than what they actually said.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 4:17 pm
  #20332  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by iano View Post
Of course there was a vote at that time. In Parliament, voted for overwhelmingly by our elected reps, passed in The Lords by our unelected reps and granted Royal Assent by another unelected rep.

Like you, Stuart Wheeler (a 'kipper) once claimed the government was bound by an election promise to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. He went to the High Court (not the ECJ) and the case was rejected, he even appealed and it was rejected once again. I doubt he keeps banging on about the claim to this day.
A previous post stated the public voted, I was pointing out the public did not vote.
The labour manifesto certainly indicated a referendum, a change of some of the wording and the Treaty title apparently negated this.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 4:30 pm
  #20333  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Nope, your link hasn't shown the draft language being changed. It demonstrates that some wanted it changed. Unless you can quote something I've missed.

But this is a common thing with you. You misrepresent what people are saying to claim they mean something other than what they actually said.
Well the final draft and the subsequent Lisbon Treaty uses the word "community" doesn't it!! How is that misrepresentation?

(I wasn't going to give links to both assume, you have read them!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa...European_Union
refs14/15/16

Giscard's 'federal' ruse to protect Blair - Telegraph

Last edited by Bipat; Jul 23rd 2017 at 4:34 pm.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 4:35 pm
  #20334  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

I think it's again worth reminding everyone of the fundamental issues here.

The issue is that free unfettered membership to the single market and customs union comes with "obligations". The four freedoms are amongst them. All those with unfettered access to the single market , whether EEA, EFTA, or EU members accept those conditions. And rightfully so.

Britain likes to argue that it should be granted that same access but without subscribing to any obligations. Britain also argues that it doesn't matter, because a free trade agreement (such as the EU has with many non-member countries) will provide that same access. But in practice, it's far from that.

But OK, Britain can agree to say, a Canada-like agreement, but that's not the same as EEA, EFTA, or EU membership, and imposes a number of restrictions, not only on goods trade, but particularly on services, the UK's largest export. And that basically diminishes the point of basing a business in Britain for the purpose of accessing the single market. And a LOT of Britain's largest businesses are based in Britain specifically for that reason (e.g., auto industry, finance, etc). It's precisely what's enabled Britain to punch so far above its weight so far.

That's the basic problem. It isn't just about trade. The knock-on effects run deep. And Britain just isn't structured to work in isolation. Large and aging population, few natural resources, a relatively small manufacturing base that will inevitably shrink when it departs from the single market. Not to mention that it will lose about 50 trade agreements in the process.

Sure, Britain can "go it alone", but any rhetoric suggesting it will somehow be "better" is wishful thinking. And all because of a fleeting nationalist ideology.

Remember, this isn't like Trump. They'll vote him out eventually. But Brexit is permanent.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 4:37 pm
  #20335  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by 007Steve View Post
And, has anyone seen the state of Heathrow or Gatwick this week? -
Just wait until you have to stand in the non-EU queue!!

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
As has been said multiple times it is the principle of supremacy over national law by the court of a community (federation of states)
Hell of a step backward for the sake of 'principle'.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 5:35 pm
  #20336  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Rafa View Post
Just wait until you have to stand in the non-EU queue!!
That's why my non-EU spouse pays £9.99 for the Premium Passport Control at Gatwick.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 5:56 pm
  #20337  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

British drug companies planning to build up stockpiles in EU countries as a counter against new post brexit regulations which could impact on UK exports .( Sunday Times )

At least business seems to have a plan.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 6:42 pm
  #20338  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Well the final draft and the subsequent Lisbon Treaty uses the word "community" doesn't it!! How is that misrepresentation?

(I wasn't going to give links to both assume, you have read them!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa...European_Union
refs14/15/16

Giscard's 'federal' ruse to protect Blair - Telegraph
Quoting from a brexit newspaper does not prove your point.

The fact is that the wording was changed to satisfy those concerned at federalism being included in the treaty.
You should look up the meaning of federal and community.
Being a law student once you will know how important the meanings of words are in treaties and legal documents.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 7:09 pm
  #20339  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Quoting from a brexit newspaper does not prove your point.

The fact is that the wording was changed to satisfy those concerned at federalism being included in the treaty.
You should look up the meaning of federal and community.
Being a law student once you will know how important the meanings of words are in treaties and legal documents.
So you accept the wording was changed? That was my point!!

I know the meaning of the words.

Just for your own interest why don't you look up 'federalism and the EU'. Then you can choose your own references.

(At the time of the news reports the word Brexit had not been coined.)
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 7:32 pm
  #20340  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
So you accept the wording was changed? That was my point!!

I know the meaning of the words.

Just for your own interest why don't you look up 'federalism and the EU'. Then you can choose your own references.

(At the time of the news reports the word Brexit had not been coined.)
The telegraph has always been a Eurosceptic, now brexit newspaper.

I knows the difference between federalism and community, do you ?

The Labour manifesto years before your link did not refer to community, yes or no.

Last edited by EMR; Jul 23rd 2017 at 7:35 pm.
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