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Post EU Referendum

Post EU Referendum

Old Jul 23rd 2017, 10:34 am
  #20296  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
That is the point!! The Uk entered and the public voted to join the EEC a trade relationship.
The subsequent Treaties have moved it nearer to a federal system (the word "Federal" was changed to "Community" after protests by the UK. however just a word change!)

As has been pointed out the EU has free trade relationships with non-EU countries the agreements to not include complete free movement of people to work and settle.
Why does India want the UK to relax its visa rules as part of the trade discussions.
That has Nothing to do with the commercial aspects ?
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 10:44 am
  #20297  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
It doesn't decide on the legality - it makes judgements on what the Treaties actually decree in the case of there being a dispute.



In which case your usage of quotes is most unorthodox, as is your interpretation of the term "freedom of movement" when used in the context of citizens of member states of the EU.
Isn't making judgements a decision on the legal aspects of the Treaties in a particular situation. It is a court.

In what way is my interpretation of free movement of EU citizens unorthodox? Are you saying it is the same as movement of citizens between non-EU countries that the UK has trade deals with?
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 10:57 am
  #20298  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
The Uk entered and the public voted to join the EEC a trade relationship..
It's so tiresome seeing this line trotted out repeatedly.

The UK Parliament voted to join the EU, a community of democratic nations right on our doorstep.

Parliamentary sovereignty in action.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:00 am
  #20299  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Why does India want the UK to relax its visa rules as part of the trade discussions.
That has Nothing to do with the commercial aspects ?
It wants speed up of business visa applications (which has happened) and confirmation of student numbers etc. More visas for those in related industries. (These issues are also reciprocal regarding visas for India).

That is not free movement is it? That is what we are discussing.

Visas for Australia/USA etc. are related to jobs, there are trade agreements with those countries but certainly not free movement.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:10 am
  #20300  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
That is the point!! The Uk entered and the public voted to join the EEC a trade relationship.
The subsequent Treaties have moved it nearer to a federal system (the word "Federal" was changed to "Community" after protests by the UK. however just a word change!)

As has been pointed out the EU has free trade relationships with non-EU countries the agreements to not include complete free movement of people to work and settle.
Freedom of movement of people was a provision of the Treaty of Rome which established the EEC way back in 1957 before the UK joined so it's a bit rich grumbling about it now.

Also, it's wrong to characterise the internal market as just another trade agreement - it's far more sophisticated than that and we will probably never have such a relationship again.

Last edited by jimenato; Jul 23rd 2017 at 11:13 am.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:11 am
  #20301  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by iano View Post
It's so tiresome seeing this line trotted out repeatedly.

The UK Parliament voted to join the EU, a community of democratic nations right on our doorstep.

Parliamentary sovereignty in action.
Yes the UK Parliament of that time. The manifesto of a subsequent Labour party indicated a referendum would be held on the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty--discussed above.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:36 am
  #20302  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
There isn't a powerful elite, totally dedicated to keeping the UK in the EU. There are plenty of people with money and power who want the opposite.

Continually trying to portray Brexit as the will of ordinary people against the elites is plain silly.
Business leaders, bankers, politicians, unions, just about every Geldof-like luvvy you could point a stick at - it was clear the the political, cultural and economic elite were fully behind remain.

Brexiters? Well, I hear it every day on sites like this, they are the backward uneducated, poor types who will suffer so greatly outside of the EU.

So yes, it is pretty clear that it was ordinary proles against the elites.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:37 am
  #20303  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by iano View Post
It's so tiresome seeing this line trotted out repeatedly.

The UK Parliament voted to join the EU, a community of democratic nations right on our doorstep.

Parliamentary sovereignty in action.
When did it do that?
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:39 am
  #20304  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
It wants speed up of business visa applications (which has happened) and confirmation of student numbers etc. More visas for those in related industries. (These issues are also reciprocal regarding visas for India).

That is not free movement is it? That is what we are discussing.

Visas for Australia/USA etc. are related to jobs, there are trade agreements with those countries but certainly not free movement.
It is linking movement to commercial agreements, the very thing you are complaining about regarding our membership off the EU.
It just a matter of numbers thats all.
EU free movement is a " commercial initiative " no different from that you want for others.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:41 am
  #20305  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Business leaders, bankers, politicians, unions, just about every Geldof-like luvvy you could point a stick at - it was clear the the political, cultural and economic elite were fully behind remain.

Brexiters? Well, I hear it every day on sites like this, they are the backward uneducated, poor types who will suffer so greatly outside of the EU.

So yes, it is pretty clear that it was ordinary proles against the elites.
Or those who employ, provide the jobs, wealth of the country against self seeking politicians etc etc.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:42 am
  #20306  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
Freedom of movement of people was a provision of the Treaty of Rome which established the EEC way back in 1957 before the UK joined so it's a bit rich grumbling about it now.

Also, it's wrong to characterise the internal market as just another trade agreement - it's far more sophisticated than that and we will probably never have such a relationship again.
Freedom of movement of people or freedom of movement of labour?
Which was it, because there is a huge difference.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:46 am
  #20307  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

http://www.westmonster.com/eu-rejects-british-calls-for-independent-brexit-monitor/

No great surprise there.
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:49 am
  #20308  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Golden Years View Post
Freedom of movement of people or freedom of movement of labour?
Which was it, because there is a huge difference.
What % of EU migrants have moved to the UK who do not work, who do not contribute or pay tax.
If you think that it is a major problem then please let us know the numbers .
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:51 am
  #20309  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
No it doesn't. The treaties lay down the details - the ECJ merely adjudicates in the final instance in the case of there being a dispute involving a complaint against the government of a member state over its adherence to any of those agreements into which it has entered.
But doesn't each "case" create "case law" that sets out the judgements against which subsequent complaints are measured?
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Old Jul 23rd 2017, 11:54 am
  #20310  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Originally Posted by Golden Years View Post
Freedom of movement of people or freedom of movement of labour?
Which was it, because there is a huge difference.
People and there is indeed a huge difference so I'm glad I have been able to put that to rest. It's people.

So basically those who are saying that we voted in the referendum to join the EEC that we were voting only for a trade agreement and not freedom of movement of people are simply wrong.

Last edited by jimenato; Jul 23rd 2017 at 11:57 am.
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