British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

robin1234 Jun 14th 2017 3:15 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12273027)
Probably something to do with a democratic referendum pointing the other way?

The Queen in Parliament is sovereign, though. The referendum was merely advisory.

Cape Blue Jun 14th 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 12273054)
The Queen in Parliament is sovereign, though. The referendum was merely advisory.

So a lot of remainers like to state, although I didn't notice the "advisory" bit on the referendum form that came though my door. Instead it said they would enact the outcome - Brexit as it happens (and under a normal understanding of the term, which in remainer-speak would be a hard Brexit).

amideislas Jun 14th 2017 3:22 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Well how come Britain hasn't left yet? What's the holdup? Just fire off notice of immediate withdrawal. Simples.

Lion in Winter Jun 14th 2017 3:26 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12273061)
So a lot of remainers like to state, although I didn't notice the "advisory" bit on the referendum form that came though my door. Instead it said they would enact the outcome - Brexit as it happens (and under a normal understanding of the term, which in remainer-speak would be a hard Brexit).

A referendum is non-binding (whatever people might think when the ballot arrives in the letter box) because Parliament is sovereign and cannot be bound by other means. That is our constitution. That does not mean that it would not provoke a constitutional crisis to ignore the result, given the role of precedent in British law.

No definition of what an exit from the EU would look like was ever offered. Deliberately, I'm sure, because when you define things people start to say "oh no, I don't want that", whereas with no definition people imagine it as they would like to see it. What you consider "normal" may not be so for others.

"Hard" and "soft" have not even been defined, to my knowledge. Everybody has their own idea of what they mean.

Cape Blue Jun 14th 2017 3:29 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12273067)
A referendum is non-binding (whatever people might think when the ballot arrives in the letter box) because Parliament is sovereign and cannot be bound by other means. That is our constitution. That does not mean that it would not provoke a constitutional crisis to ignore the result, given the role of precedent in British law.

No definition of what an exit from the EU would look like was ever offered. Deliberately, I'm sure, because when you define things people start to say "oh no, I don't want that", whereas with no definition people imagine it as they would like to see it. What you consider "normal" may not be so for others.

"Hard" and "soft" have not even been defined, to my knowledge. Everybody has their own idea of what they mean.

Brexit means Brexit - it means leaving all parts of the EU - ECJ, single market, customs union and on and on. Remainers have tried to paint this as a "hard" brexit in their attempts to pull a win(less loss) from a loss.

amideislas Jun 14th 2017 3:41 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Anything other than a full withdrawal would be merely a distinction without much difference ("soft" brexit is not brexit).

robin1234 Jun 14th 2017 4:14 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12273072)
Brexit means Brexit - it means leaving all parts of the EU - ECJ, single market, customs union and on and on. Remainers have tried to paint this as a "hard" brexit in their attempts to pull a win(less loss) from a loss.

Yes, but that doesn't alter the fact that parliament is sovereign, and so all referendums are merely advisory.

Cape Blue Jun 14th 2017 4:19 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 12273098)
Yes, but that doesn't alter the fact that parliament is sovereign, and so all referendums are merely advisory.

Anti-democratic hard-core remainers just embarrass themselves with that sort of backtracking. They're acting like children who have been told "no" for the first time.

Lion in Winter Jun 14th 2017 4:28 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12273101)
Anti-democratic hard-core remainers just embarrass themselves with that sort of backtracking. They're acting like children who have been told "no" for the first time.

Why is it backtracking?

Parliament has been sovereign for a few centuries now, and the referendum was never billed as anything but advisory, because it wasn't. And I don't think anyone is suggesting overruling it, either. So I'm not sure why you are upset.

iano Jun 14th 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12273072)
Brexit means Brexit - it means leaving all parts of the EU - ECJ, single market, customs union and on and on. Remainers have tried to paint this as a "hard" brexit in their attempts to pull a win(less loss) from a loss.

I wish you'd stop trying to repaint history, perhaps you ought to try a little 'backtracking' yourself.

'Brexit means Brexit' is only a relatively recent mantra of May's. Johnson & co often used to inform us that Brexit means "there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market."

Not all us prols realised that there's a very subtle yet significant difference between 'access' and 'membership' of the single market, neither did we question these premature claims or even Johnson's ability to deliver on either free trade or single market access prior to any EU agreement.

Weasel Words of the Arch Slippery

robin1234 Jun 14th 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12273101)
Anti-democratic hard-core remainers just embarrass themselves with that sort of backtracking. They're acting like children who have been told "no" for the first time.

I have no idea what you mean. You don't agree that parliament is sovereign? Folks who write pamphlets can't simply change the British constitution at will. They certainly can't bind a future government to accept a referendum as binding.

EMR Jun 14th 2017 6:44 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12273101)
Anti-democratic hard-core remainers just embarrass themselves with that sort of backtracking. They're acting like children who have been told "no" for the first time.

Explain why then the government is keen to negotiate the best terms ( its terms ) our exit instead of walking away, cutting all ties .
Is the government anti democratic and acting like a hard core remainder.

Lion in Winter Jun 14th 2017 6:48 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 12273197)
I have no idea what you mean. You don't agree that parliament is sovereign? Folks who write pamphlets can't simply change the British constitution at will. They certainly can't bind a future government to accept a referendum as binding.

This.

GeniB Jun 14th 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Fredbargate (Post 12272724)
So is the UK darling

On it's own terms

Ah Bless... would that be with the owl and pussycat in a pea green boat?:starsmile:

Scamp Jun 15th 2017 5:57 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12273072)
Brexit means Brexit - it means leaving all parts of the EU - ECJ, single market, customs union and on and on. Remainers have tried to paint this as a "hard" brexit in their attempts to pull a win(less loss) from a loss.

So what will we do?

Just bob around in the North Atlantic wondering how to import that Audi we want?


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