British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Dick Dasterdly Aug 22nd 2016 11:55 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12032331)
The EU was created in 1993, 23 years ago. How on earth did the UK manage before that??? Were we all living in huts, with medicine men coming round with potions, highway men stealing our belongings (if we had any), cannibals?
Nettle soup/ grass woven cloaks?
I seem to remember there was electricity and running water, am I correct?

Found this article (published in 2007) about joining the EEC.
(Sorry it's the Mail)

What if Britain HADN'T joined the EU? | Daily Mail Online

::goodpost:


That's an excellent article, and all so very true, regardless where it came from.

Scamp Aug 23rd 2016 4:23 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12032645)
That's an excellent article, and all so very true, regardless where it came from.

It's an article of if's but's and maybe's.

"so very true, regardless of where it came from" - that just about sums up your mentality.

TGA Aug 23rd 2016 4:37 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12032437)
We used to manufacture stuff, but like most of the "industrialised" western world, that moved to Asia (because we in the western world require high salaries, low work hours, long holdays, and cushy benefits, so we can't compete anymore). We used to have coal mines, but that took back seat to nukes and other forms of energy. We used to have steel mills, but we refused to put tariffs on Chinese steel.

And thats how we got by before.

We used to have exports, and still do. Things like pukka pies, HP sauce, and Carling... And a few cars (mostly manufactured abroad somewhere, but we assemble some of them in Britain).

Now, we mostly sell financial products, move money, and work for the NHS (or global companies trading with Europe).

Just curious why you flip between 1st and 3rd person when talking about Britain?
You don't have to answer, just curious.:zzz:

Red Eric Aug 23rd 2016 6:57 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12032179)

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12031092)
The main problem is that the vast majority of those against Brexit either don't have the faintest clue what the EU is all about or simply dare not even mention it.

Now here's a coincidence - almost those exact same words were published in The Observer yesterday, albeit in a slightly different context. In their version, quoting "senior UK diplomats", it is leading Tory Brexiteers who don't have the faintest clue :

Senior UK diplomats have been shocked by how little leading Tories in government – including Johnson – understand about the workings of the EU and its single market.


“It is staggering,” said one top UK official. “They have not even got to base one in terms of knowledge.” Charles Grant, director of the Centre for European Reform in London, says some “very senior” people in the UK government are deeply ignorant about the single market, and adds that only now are the Brexit-backers beginning to grasp the difficulty of what faces them. “I think that two months down the line the senior Brexiters are beginning to realise that the whole process is going to be a lot more complicated, time-consuming and boring than they had imagined before, when they had presented it all as black and white. They are beginning to realise that this will occupy most of the energies of government for the next five to 10 years.
Full article here : Brexit X-men: how the prime minister’s key negotiators are coping | Politics | The Guardian


Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12032331)
The EU was created in 1993, 23 years ago. How on earth did the UK manage before that??? Were we all living in huts, with medicine men coming round with potions, highway men stealing our belongings (if we had any), cannibals?
Nettle soup/ grass woven cloaks?
I seem to remember there was electricity and running water, am I correct?

Found this article (published in 2007) about joining the EEC.
(Sorry it's the Mail)

What if Britain HADN'T joined the EU? | Daily Mail Online

I fail to see the relevance of your response to my post. Mine was pointing out the complete ineptitude of (some?) of the people who led the Leave campaign in terms of where they start from and what aims they have.

Yours is a "what if" about the joining of the Union 40 years ago.

I haven't ever said that the UK couldn't have got by if it hadn't joined the EU or that it won't do so now it's chosen to leave. We are (I thought) discussing matters relating to what happens next, not imaginary scenarios about what could have happened should we never have joined. And I think it's interesting in terms of what happens next that the UK doesn't even have enough experienced negotiators at its disposal and that senior government officials, including those who were directly involved in the Leave campaign, are having to be tutored in the most basic aspects of the workings of the EU etc. Don't you think it's interesting? I mean, you're a Leaver, you voted and it's now blindingly obvious (if it wasn't before) that you voted for a course of action that hasn't yet been decided on and that the government itself is at sixes and sevens as to what their negotiating position will be at the outset.

jimenato Aug 23rd 2016 7:38 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12032535)
An amicable agreement for the 500 million citizens of Europe so all European nations can prosper and move on together.

Does it include no payments to the EU, access to the singe market, not having to obey EU rules and not allowing freedom of movement of EU citizens in the UK?

amideislas Aug 23rd 2016 8:37 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12032817)
Does it include no payments to the EU, access to the singe market, not having to obey EU rules and not allowing freedom of movement of EU citizens in the UK?

The original goal was simply to "get out". We can no longer tolerate the rules, the foreigners, and having to pay for it too.

Yet we expect all the benefits of the single market without any of those burdens. An "amicable agreement", apparently. If you don't agree, you're not being "amicable". How gloriously noble of us to be so "amicable".

Does this mean Britain is uniquely "entitled" to those "benefits"? It is a uniquely British theme after all.

Or is it simply another case of British exceptionalism?

Bipat Aug 23rd 2016 8:54 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12032793)
I fail to see the relevance of your response to my post. Mine was pointing out the complete ineptitude of (some?) of the people who led the Leave campaign in terms of where they start from and what aims they have.

Yours is a "what if" about the joining of the Union 40 years ago.

I haven't ever said that the UK couldn't have got by if it hadn't joined the EU or that it won't do so now it's chosen to leave. We are (I thought) discussing matters relating to what happens next, not imaginary scenarios about what could have happened should we never have joined. And I think it's interesting in terms of what happens next that the UK doesn't even have enough experienced negotiators at its disposal and that senior government officials, including those who were directly involved in the Leave campaign, are having to be tutored in the most basic aspects of the workings of the EU etc. Don't you think it's interesting? I mean, you're a Leaver, you voted and it's now blindingly obvious (if it wasn't before) that you voted for a course of action that hasn't yet been decided on and that the government itself is at sixes and sevens as to what their negotiating position will be at the outset.

We didn't join the 'union' 40 years ago that was my point, we joined the EEC 40 years ago, the EU 23 years ago.

My light hearted question was---- were we in such a terrible state 23 years ago, that to go back would herald disaster? I don't know and I would suggest neither do you.
We have to give various negotiations time! We cannot make other trade agreements until we actually leave.

I thought the 'what if ' article was just interesting, something different for the 'one track minded -remainers' to consider.

What is "blindingly obvious"? How can you or journalists possibly know what politicians know or don't know? (Have you marked their exam papers?:lol:)
It is hardly a few weeks since the referendum.

amideislas Aug 23rd 2016 9:02 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12032543)
The more pessimistic and loathsome comments you post the more I can see your fear of a successful Britain creeping in.

The EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU.


...we have a big trade deficit with the EU. It exported £291 billion to us in 2014 while we exported £229 billion to it. So the other member states would, they say, lose more if our trading relationship broke down. The likes of BMW would be so desperate to sell to us that they would force the German government to open the EU market to us in return.

There are many problems with the argument.

One is that it totally ignores proportionality. Britain’s exports to the EU represent 13% of our GDP. The rest of the EU’s exports to Britain represent just 3% of its GDP. Neither side would win from a trade war. But we would be hit proportionately much harder. We need them more than they need us. They could afford to play hard ball. We couldn’t as, if they limited access to the single market which accounts for 44% of our exports, we would be hit badly.

https://infacts.org/wp-content/uploa...6/03/table.png


Another problem is our fallback position. If we didn’t get a trade deal, we’d have to rely on the World Trade Organisation (WTO). The snag is that the WTO works well for goods (where the Germans are strong) and doesn’t do much for services (where the UK is strong). We wouldn’t be able to put many restrictions on German and other exports to us, but they’d be pretty much free to shut us out of their services markets, including finance. So we’d have a weak negotiating position.

Yet another problem is that some EU countries might see our departure as an opportunity to grab some of our crown jewels. The two main prizes would be: to slice up parts of the City and entice it to Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam or Dublin; and to attract some of the large flows of foreign direct investment that now come to Britain, in part so that businesses can access the entire EU market. This would give some EU countries an incentive to stop us getting full access to its market post-Brexit,

jimenato Aug 23rd 2016 9:38 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12032890)

Difficult to believe, but some people don't understand that.

Bipat Aug 23rd 2016 9:39 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12032890)


The rest of the world is moving faster.

Over the next 10-15 years, 90% of world demand will be generated outside of Europe.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

Red Eric Aug 23rd 2016 10:05 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12032884)
I thought the 'what if ' article was just interesting, something different for the 'one track minded -remainers' to consider.

Oh I see now (I think :confused:). It wasn't a response to anything in my post at all.

Fredbargate Aug 23rd 2016 10:16 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Please excuse my maths

But if a combination of 27 countries export 3% of their GDP to the UK is that not the equivalent of one country exporting 81% of it's GDP versus the UK's 13%

amideislas Aug 23rd 2016 10:21 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12032910)
The rest of the world is moving faster.

Over the next 10-15 years, 90% of world demand will be generated outside of Europe.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/


That's absolutely true, Bipat.

As small island nation with a largely tax-based economy and a large population to support with generous benefits, it's going to need a powerful value proposition to attract foreign investment and trade from the growing and increasingly globalised "rest of the world".

Oh, it already has an excellent value proposition: Just set up shop here and trade freely within the world's largest economy (and pay tax on that trade of course).

Oh, wait...

Bipat Aug 23rd 2016 10:29 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12032928)
Oh I see now (I think :confused:). It wasn't a response to anything in my post at all.

The rest of the post was.
Typical 'remainer' just edit what you want out of an article or 'post'.:lol:

Bipat Aug 23rd 2016 10:33 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12032939)
That's absolutely true, Bipat.

As small island nation with a largely tax-based economy and a large population to support with generous benefits, it's going to need a powerful value proposition to attract foreign investment and trade from the growing and increasingly globalised "rest of the world".

Oh, it already has an excellent value proposition: Just set up shop here and trade freely within the world's largest economy (and pay tax on that trade of course).

Oh, wait...

Other large economies are moving faster than the EU. Time doesn't stand still!

I have given you an example of the fastest growing large economy already planning more investment when Brexit finally happens.


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