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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Sep 21st 2018, 7:44 am
  #121  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
That's fine but I personally don't think that 16 year olds are mature enough to participate in the democratic process and especially not the 16 year olds in this country. I'm also not entirely convinced that would have automatically produced the result that you and others wanted either.
There was a crusty old Brexiter on a radio phone in who believes that the voting age should be raised.
The response was , do that and thoseholding your views would always win..
However I do think that 18 is The right age, if only they would get off their backsides and vote..
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 9:17 am
  #122  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Why is this issue non-binary? It seemed like a very straightforward question to me and there wasn't really any other option that could have been presented to the public on this issue.
It was a straightforward question - that's the problem. The issue is far from straightforward - as we are seeing and as was obvious from the start to anyone who understood.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 9:21 am
  #123  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
There was a crusty old Brexiter on a radio phone in who believes that the voting age should be raised.
The response was , do that and thoseholding your views would always win..
However I do think that 18 is The right age, if only they would get off their backsides and vote..
And that's the key point isn't it. There is no evidence to suggest that allowing 16 year olds to vote would have produced a different result. At that age people tend to have very little life experience and their political beliefs are likely to be largely influenced by those of their parents. Hence 16 year olds in staunchly pro-Brexit areas still may have voted Leave.

There isn't even a guarantee that allowing Europeans to vote would have produced a different result. I work with an Italian who happily told me that had he been given the right to vote in the referendum then he would have voted Leave.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 9:23 am
  #124  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
It was a straightforward question - that's the problem. The issue is far from straightforward - as we are seeing and as was obvious from the start to anyone who understood.
The granularities and processes of it are far from straightforward, absolutely but the question that needed to be asked to the public was still the same either way. There was no third option to present at the time and there still isn't now.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 9:33 am
  #125  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
The granularities and processes of it are far from straightforward, absolutely but the question that needed to be asked to the public was still the same either way. There was no third option to present at the time and there still isn't now.
There aren't and never were two or three options - there were hundreds and that is why it was so unbelievably stupid to hold such a referendum.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 9:54 am
  #126  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
There aren't and never were two or three options - there were hundreds and that is why it was so unbelievably stupid to hold such a referendum.
So what are they then? The UK cannot reshape fundamental EU policy to a required standard and that was proven by Cameron before the referendum.

I'm not saying that the UK should necessarily be able to do that but that's why I think it's a short sighted notion to suggest that we should just remain an EU country purely for the sake of it.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 10:02 am
  #127  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
And that's the key point isn't it. There is no evidence to suggest that allowing 16 year olds to vote would have produced a different result. At that age people tend to have very little life experience and their political beliefs are likely to be largely influenced by those of their parents. Hence 16 year olds in staunchly pro-Brexit areas still may have voted Leave.

There isn't even a guarantee that allowing Europeans to vote would have produced a different result. I work with an Italian who happily told me that had he been given the right to vote in the referendum then he would have voted Leave.
Whether the 16-17 would influence the final result is debatable; the larger point is that they have sufficient capacity to vote on an issue that will impact the rest of their lives. I remember myself at 15 and was more than capable of making an informed decision, as would many other young people be.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 10:05 am
  #128  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Whether the 16-17 would influence the final result is debatable; the larger point is that they have sufficient capacity to vote on an issue that will impact the rest of their lives. I remember myself at 15 and was more than capable of making an informed decision, as would many other young people be.
But you could apply that same rationale to any election, surely. For example, the 2010 election result hit the youth population in a major way because of how tuition fees increased.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 10:21 am
  #129  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Why is this issue non-binary? It seemed like a very straightforward question to me and there wasn't really any other option that could have been presented to the public on this issue.
Clearly a binary question was put to the public. For the uninformed, and there were many, Leaving was presented as straightforwardly as ending a camping trip, hence the masses now questions "why we haven't left yet, just get on with it."

"Leave" could have been presented as negotiate the UK's future membership in the EU including the possibility of leaving and losing all membership rights.

That would give the government more negotiating lattitude at home. That is the reality of a complex negotiation which relates to 40 years of economic and political integration. As Macron said, lies were peddled as to how easy a Leave would be, and May only exacerbated these by trumpeting Will of the People etc.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 10:23 am
  #130  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
But you could apply that same rationale to any election, surely. For example, the 2010 election result hit the youth population in a major way because of how tuition fees increased.
EU referendum: 30-40 year time frame with massive structural changes.

Election: 5 year (or less) time frame with cyclical and minor issues.

Not the same.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 10:29 am
  #131  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
EU referendum: 30-40 year time frame with massive structural changes.

Election: 5 year (or less) time frame with cyclical and minor issues.

Not the same.
Of course it is. Both have the ability to impact and redirect the country in a way that can take many years to reverse.

If anything, this whole exercise has opened the eyes of Joe Public to just how much we have surrendered to Europe over the last 4 decades. It has all been slowly and quietly chipped away while Brussels have chased their ridiculous federalist agenda. It's a good thing that the UK is making this break now while it still can.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 10:31 am
  #132  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post

"Leave" could have been presented as negotiate the UK's future membership in the EU including the possibility of leaving and losing all membership rights.
We've tried to negotiate with them in the past. It can't be done and it's pointless to even try anymore.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 10:54 am
  #133  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Of course it is. Both have the ability to impact and redirect the country in a way that can take many years to reverse.

If anything, this whole exercise has opened the eyes of Joe Public to just how much we have surrendered to Europe over the last 4 decades. It has all been slowly and quietly chipped away while Brussels have chased their ridiculous federalist agenda. It's a good thing that the UK is making this break now while it still can.
It is not the same. You seem to have difficulty in evaluating magnitude. Is electing, for example, a local councillor the same as electing an MP? Deciding to come out of the EU is no NO WAY equivalent to a general election decision.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 10:57 am
  #134  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
We've tried to negotiate with them in the past. It can't be done and it's pointless to even try anymore.
Maybe so. In which case it's No Deal. If the Leave actually wanted No Deal the referendum could have stated No Deal, No SM, No CU, WTO terms, and the electorate could have debated that in 2016. Instead, they were promised a fudge cake, hence this chaos.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 11:02 am
  #135  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Maybe so. In which case it's No Deal. If the Leave actually wanted No Deal the referendum could have stated No Deal, No SM, No CU, WTO terms, and the electorate could have debated that in 2016. Instead, they were promised a fudge cake, hence this chaos.
​​​​​​I don't think they actually promised anything. They sold an idea for a brighter future and that was it. At no point did they ever say what would categorically happen and as I've stated before, nobody fronting the Leave campaign was in a position to make fully fledged campaign promises anyway.
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