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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Sep 20th 2018, 11:34 pm
  #106  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
The 16 & 17 year olds should have been included. They're going to experience far more of the "new order" than the seniors.
But at 16 or 17 years what knowledge do they draw on to be able to decide on their country's future? There are reasons why the majority of those who voted to leave are older: The University of Life, experience, and greater knowledge of the world and how it got to where it is now. Realism over idealism. Wisdom.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 11:55 pm
  #107  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
The 16 & 17 year olds should have been included. They're going to experience far more of the "new order" than the seniors.
So answer my question then, where do you draw the line? You could argue that a 10 year old would experience even more than a 17 year old. Would you issue ballot papers to 10 year olds as well?

​​​​​Countries almost never tend to be politically static. Policies and laws change greatly on an annual basis and future generations are always going to be more susceptible than older people are. The pro-Remain camp just make that argument in this particuar case because they think it would have swung the referendum their way. That's why a lot of them also wanted voting rights for foreigners, criminals etc.

The truth is that every free and law abiding UK citizen over the age of 18 and living in this country had the right to register and vote. The fact that many a millennial couldn't be arsed to do so is hardly the fault of those older than them.

lt sometimes feels like there isn't any level to which the hardcore pro-Remain and Neo-leftists in this country won't stoop.

Last edited by DigitalGhost; Sep 21st 2018 at 12:00 am.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 11:58 pm
  #108  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
But at 16 or 17 years what knowledge do they draw on to be able to decide on their country's future? There are reasons why the majority of those who voted to leave are older: The University of Life, experience, and greater knowledge of the world and how it got to where it is now. Realism over idealism. Wisdom.
Well, they're in school, and I would guess that their general knowledge is far more up to date, and their minds sharper than anyone over the age of sixty. If you watch Britsh TV news you will see scores of ''man on the street' interviews of folk from the University of Life who haven't an clue about economics, law, or immigration. Indeed, you could probably get more sensible votes out of 14 year olds than 64 year olds. Votes of optimism and inclusion rather than cynicism and nostalgia. And even if the the youth are wrong, it's they that live through it.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 12:02 am
  #109  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
So answer my question then, where do you draw the line? You could argue that a 10 year old would experience even more than a 17 year old. Would you issue ballot papers to 10 year olds as well?

​​​​​Countries almost never tend to be politically static. Policies and laws change greatly on an annual basis and future generations are always going to be more susceptible than older people are. The pro-Remain camp just make that argument in this particuar case because they think it would have swung the referendum their way. That's why a lot of them also wanted voting rights for foreigners, criminals etc.

The truth is that every free and law abiding UK citizen over the age of 18 and living in this country had the right to register and vote. The fact that many a millennial couldn't be arsed to do so is hardly the fault of those older than them.

lt sometimes feels like there isn't any level to which the hardcore pro-Remain and Neo-leftists in this country won't stoop.
I did answer your question. 16. You draw the line at 16. If someone is 16 or above (that includes 17) they should have been able to vote. No need to discuss 18, as they were permitted to vote. So the answer is age 16 and above (i.e. 16 and 17 year olds). Sorry that my answer was so vague the first time.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 12:03 am
  #110  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Well, they're in school, and I would guess that their general knowledge is far more up to date, and their minds sharper than anyone over the age of sixty. If you watch Britsh TV news you will see scores of ''man on the street' interviews of folk from the University of Life who haven't an clue about economics, law, or immigration. Indeed, you could probably get more sensible votes out of 14 year olds than 64 year olds. Votes of optimism and inclusion rather than cynicism and nostalgia. And even if the the youth are wrong, it's they that live through it.
I'll be honest, you're vastly over-estimating the modern British youth. Most of them lack the intelligence with which they were born and have all the worldly knowledge of a rural Albanian goat herder and no more morals, tact or decency than Donald Trump.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 12:05 am
  #111  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I did answer your question. 16. You draw the line at 16. If someone is 16 or above (that includes 17) they should have been able to vote. No need to discuss 18, as they were permitted to vote. So the answer is age 16 and above (i.e. 16 and 17 year olds). Sorry that my answer was so vague the first time.
That's fine but I personally don't think that 16 year olds are mature enough to participate in the democratic process and especially not the 16 year olds in this country. I'm also not entirely convinced that would have automatically produced the result that you and others wanted either.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 12:08 am
  #112  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
I'll be honest, you're vastly over-estimating the modern British youth. Most of them lack the intelligence with which they were born and have all the worldly knowledge of a rural Albanian goat herder and no more morals, tact or decency than Donald Trump.
​​​​​Is that so. You were just saying that you were recently a youth, weren't you?
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 12:13 am
  #113  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
That's fine but I personally don't think that 16 year olds are mature enough to participate in the democratic process and especially not the 16 year olds in this country. I'm also not entirely convinced that would have automatically produced the result that you and others wanted either.
So, for example, a kid who has just completed GCSE's with high grades isn't mature enough to participate in the democratic process, but an adult with, say, drug abuse problems is mature enough?
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 12:19 am
  #114  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
​​​​​Is that so. You were just saying that you were recently a youth, weren't you?
More recently than you I think yes. I personally don't think I would have been mature enough at that age to make an informed political decision and kids of 16 these days are much less mature and more over-privileged than I was.

Part of the whole issue with Brexit and leftist millennials stems from the fact that they tend to be very used to always getting their own way and can't understand when that doesn't happen.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 3:38 am
  #115  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
More recently than you I think yes. I personally don't think I would have been mature enough at that age to make an informed political decision and kids of 16 these days are much less mature and more over-privileged than I was.
Old fogeys always say that.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 6:16 am
  #116  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Yeah because they're all lining up to rely on Spain, France and Portugal aren't they.
What leads you to presume that all "not English" are just more "nose in trough" sponges of "other people's money"? And why is England the exception?

You really, really need to get out more often.

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Old Sep 21st 2018, 7:33 am
  #117  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
What leads you to presume that all "not English" are just more "nose in trough" sponges of "other people's money"? And why is England the exception?

You really, really need to get out more often.
I don't recall saying or even inferring any of that.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 7:38 am
  #118  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I do think the decision should be reversed, and that democracy is over-rated in this instance.
Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
What an utterly depressing thing to read.
Democracy is the least worst way of doing things. It must be used carefully.

What we are experiencing now is the result of bad democracy.

To ask the electorate to vote in a binary manner on a non-binary issue was utter stupidity. Many of us said so at the time and we have been proved right.

Yes - what Shard said was depressing - but also very right.

In fact I would go further - this instance of democracy isn't just over-rated - it's not even democracy.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 7:39 am
  #119  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
I don't recall saying or even inferring any of that.
implying...

(education these days...)
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 7:40 am
  #120  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
Democracy is the least worst way of doing things. It must be used carefully.

What we are experiencing now is the result of bad democracy.

To ask the electorate to vote in a binary manner on a non-binary issue was utter stupidity. Many of us said so at the time and we have been proved right.

Yes - what Shard said was depressing - but also very right.

In fact I would go further - this instance of democracy isn't just over-rated - it's not even democracy.
Why is this issue non-binary? It seemed like a very straightforward question to me and there wasn't really any other option that could have been presented to the public on this issue.
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