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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Mar 20th 2019, 3:31 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
You would expect Theresa May to show a modicum of contrition after being knocked back by parliament, the speaker and the EU...instead she's now blaming the parliament for "navel gazing" when she has facilitated the entire farce. I do hope the EU comes back with either no extension a very long extension, as that would get rid of this demented leader in the shortest time. Nobdy wants her dodgy deal, I don't know why she does not seem to understand that.
I happen to disagree with you guys on this topic.

I have no love for her. Like her compadres in this fiasco, she went into it with precious little understanding of what they were doing, modelling an over simplistic "plan" which depended on the EU falling over itself to accommodate Brexit Britain. Presumably the base notion was that "they need us more than we need them". And to add insult to injury, amazingly, they started from a point of near zero comprehension of what the EU is or even how it works. We need not rerun the infamous quotes from those in charge of Brexit which serve as a testament to that.

But the journey was a learning experience. Particularly for Theresa May, the ONLY one who would bear any responsibility for finding a way out of this mess.

So, she tried every possible avenue. Starting with many delusions, but ultimately, reality became clear, and she finally realised that the other side of the negotiating table not only held the majority of the face cards, but when she finally grasped the reality of what the EU needs and why, she found the ONLY solution possible (the WA), and brought it home to a cabinet and much of Parliament, who had not the benefit of all she had learned in the process, and therefore were still of the "cake and eat it" mindset. They accused her of "selling out", of "negotiating a bad deal".

But in truth, this IS the deal. It was all anybody will ever get. And frankly, the WA does indeed satisfy brexit with minimal chaos. Under it, the UK will leave in an orderly fashion, and ultimately, be tied to the EU only if >the UK< fails to meets its absolute responsibilities under existing treaties with the EU and/or its member states. It's not up to the EU to solve the Irish border issue, for example. It is inherently, the UK's responsibility.

So, my view is that TM did as much as anyone could do. And I give her credit for not giving up, because she knows very well that this is it. All of it. And the alternatives either do not execute the referendum result, or lead to a disaster, politically and otherwise.

Now, I'd argue whether the referendum result is an absolute mandate (technically, it isn't) but that's how the current government is interpreting it. And in that context, what TM got was the only outcome available. There simply isn't any other possible withdrawal agreement. And it's not her fault.

Last edited by amideislas; Mar 20th 2019 at 3:38 pm.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 3:38 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by vinegarboy View Post
In idle passing, why is it that our white bits are asymmetric, anyhow?
They're not. It's the red bits that are asymmetric. St Patrick's saltire (the red diagonal cross) is visible below the diagonals on the hoist side, and above the diagonals on the fly side. The white diagonals of St Andrew's saltire are shown full-width in all four diagonals.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 3:42 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
I happen to disagree with you guys on this topic.

I have no love for her. Like her compadres in this fiasco, she went into it with precious little understanding of what they were doing, modelling an over simplistic "plan" which depended on the EU falling over itself to accommodate Brexit Britain. Presumably the base notion was that "they need us more than we need them". And to add insult to injury, amazingly, they started from a point of near zero comprehension of what the EU is or even how it works. We need not rerun the infamous quotes from those in charge of Brexit which serve as a testament to that.

But the journey was a learning experience. Particularly for Theresa May, the ONLY one who would bear any responsibility for finding a way out of this mess.

So, she tried every possible avenue. Starting with many delusions, but ultimately, reality became clear, and she finally realised that the other side of the negotiating table not only held the majority of the face cards, but when she finally grasped the reality of what the EU needs and why, she found the ONLY solution possible (the WA), and brought it home to a cabinet and much of Parliament, who had not the benefit of all she had learned in the process, and therefore were still of the "cake and eat it" mindset. They accused her of "selling out", of "negotiating a bad deal".

But in truth, this IS the deal. It was all anybody will ever get. And frankly, the WA does indeed satisfy brexit with minimal chaos. Under it, the UK will leave in an orderly fashion, and ultimately, be tied to the EU only if >the UK< fails to meets its absolute responsibilities under existing treaties with the EU and/or its member states. It's not up to the EU to solve the Irish border issue, for example. It is inherently, the UK's responsibility.

So, my view is that TM did as much as anyone could do. And I give her credit for not giving up, because she knows very well that this is it. All of it. And the alternatives either do not execute the referendum result, or lead to a disaster, politically and otherwise.

Now, I'd argue whether the referendum result is an absolute mandate (technically, it isn't) but that's how the current government is interpreting it. And in that context, what TM got was the only outcome available. There simply isn't any other possible withdrawal agreement. And it's not her fault.
Nonsense. Of course it's her fault. There was no reason that she couldn't have been where we're now at in Parliament in mid-December. The cunning witch deliberately chose to postpone letting Parliament vote on the WA back in the first half of December. It'll serve her right if Tusk et al. read her the Riot Act on Thursday.

Last edited by vinegarboy; Mar 20th 2019 at 3:49 pm.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 3:46 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
They're not. It's the red bits that are asymmetric. St Patrick's saltire (the red diagonal cross) is visible below the diagonals on the hoist side, and above the diagonals on the fly side. The white diagonals of St Andrew's saltire are shown full-width in all four diagonals.
Haha, thanks for pointing that out, Oak. If we end up losing Scotland & NI, we'll just revert to St. George, or might the Welsh want a dragon in one of the corners? Plus or minus a leek...
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 3:49 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by vinegarboy View Post
Nonsense. Of course it's her fault. There was no reason that she couldn't have been where we're now at in Parliament in mid-December. The cunning witch deliberately chose to postpone letting Parliament vote on the WA back in tbe first half of December. It'll serve her right if Tusk et al. read her the Riot Act on Thursday.

I agree. Another reason why I have no love for TM. Could've been done over a year ago. But they (all of them) were still living in their special world of hubris, believing they held all the cards. Reality ultimately sorted that out for them, too late, and too short, but out of all the delusionals, TM is the only one that knows that this is all they're going to get, AND knows very well why.

Last edited by amideislas; Mar 20th 2019 at 3:53 pm.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 3:53 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
I agree. Another reason why I have no love for TM. Could've been done over a year ago. But they (all of them) were still living in their special world of hubris, believing they held all the cards. Reality ultimately sorted that out for them, too late, and too short, but out of all the delusionals, TM is the only one that knows that this is all they're going to get.
All I want to see gotten is a 2R, & a prompt revocation of A50 the very next day.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 3:56 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
I happen to disagree with you guys on this topic.

I have no love for her. Like her compadres in this fiasco, she went into it with precious little understanding of what they were doing, modelling an over simplistic "plan" which depended on the EU falling over itself to accommodate Brexit Britain. Presumably the base notion was that "they need us more than we need them". And to add insult to injury, amazingly, they started from a point of near zero comprehension of what the EU is or even how it works. We need not rerun the infamous quotes from those in charge of Brexit which serve as a testament to that.

But the journey was a learning experience. Particularly for Theresa May, the ONLY one who would bear any responsibility for finding a way out of this mess.

So, she tried every possible avenue. Starting with many delusions, but ultimately, reality became clear, and she finally realised that the other side of the negotiating table not only held the majority of the face cards, but when she finally grasped the reality of what the EU needs and why, she found the ONLY solution possible (the WA), and brought it home to a cabinet and much of Parliament, who had not the benefit of all she had learned in the process, and therefore were still of the "cake and eat it" mindset. They accused her of "selling out", of "negotiating a bad deal".

But in truth, this IS the deal. It was all anybody will ever get. And frankly, the WA does indeed satisfy brexit with minimal chaos. Under it, the UK will leave in an orderly fashion, and ultimately, be tied to the EU only if >the UK< fails to meets its absolute responsibilities under existing treaties with the EU and/or its member states. It's not up to the EU to solve the Irish border issue, for example. It is inherently, the UK's responsibility.

So, my view is that TM did as much as anyone could do. And I give her credit for not giving up, because she knows very well that this is it. All of it. And the alternatives either do not execute the referendum result, or lead to a disaster, politically and otherwise.

Now, I'd argue whether the referendum result is an absolute mandate (technically, it isn't) but that's how the current government is interpreting it. And in that context, what TM got was the only outcome available. There simply isn't any other possible withdrawal agreement. And it's not her fault.
I have some sympathy with this chain of events but she must bear fault for having 'precious little understanding' as you put it yet still triggering A50.

We remainers knew, and said so from way before the referendum, that this would lead to chaos and we have been proved right. Someone in her position should have known and taken steps (and I have previously outlined what she could have done) to avoided this debacle.

There is a whole chain of fault and she is currently the last link in that chain.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 3:57 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Rumours TM will make a statement later today ...
What can she possibly say we don't know yet ?
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 4:03 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
Rumours TM will make a statement later today ...
What can she possibly say we don't know yet ?
Hopefully her overdue resignation.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 4:05 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by vinegarboy View Post
Hopefully her overdue resignation.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 4:08 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by vinegarboy View Post
Haha, thanks for pointing that out, Oak. If we end up losing Scotland & NI, we'll just revert to St. George, or might the Welsh want a dragon in one of the corners? Plus or minus a leek...
Perhaps full leek on a white background. It would be strangely fitting for the new EW union.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 4:11 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
I have some sympathy with this chain of events but she must bear fault for having 'precious little understanding' as you put it yet still triggering A50.

We remainers knew, and said so from way before the referendum, that this would lead to chaos and we have been proved right. Someone in her position should have known and taken steps (and I have previously outlined what she could have done) to avoided this debacle.

There is a whole chain of fault and she is currently the last link in that chain.
Since taking over from Dave, she is every link.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 4:11 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Perhaps full leek on a white background. It would be strangely fitting for the new EW union.
I wonder if there might've been a Monty Python flag of that sort, hehe. Or on The Goodies, mayhap.

Last edited by vinegarboy; Mar 20th 2019 at 4:18 pm.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 4:18 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
I happen to disagree with you guys on this topic.

I have no love for her. Like her compadres in this fiasco, she went into it with precious little understanding of what they were doing, modelling an over simplistic "plan" which depended on the EU falling over itself to accommodate Brexit Britain. Presumably the base notion was that "they need us more than we need them". And to add insult to injury, amazingly, they started from a point of near zero comprehension of what the EU is or even how it works. We need not rerun the infamous quotes from those in charge of Brexit which serve as a testament to that.

But the journey was a learning experience. Particularly for Theresa May, the ONLY one who would bear any responsibility for finding a way out of this mess.

So, she tried every possible avenue. Starting with many delusions, but ultimately, reality became clear, and she finally realised that the other side of the negotiating table not only held the majority of the face cards, but when she finally grasped the reality of what the EU needs and why, she found the ONLY solution possible (the WA), and brought it home to a cabinet and much of Parliament, who had not the benefit of all she had learned in the process, and therefore were still of the "cake and eat it" mindset. They accused her of "selling out", of "negotiating a bad deal".

But in truth, this IS the deal. It was all anybody will ever get. And frankly, the WA does indeed satisfy brexit with minimal chaos. Under it, the UK will leave in an orderly fashion, and ultimately, be tied to the EU only if >the UK< fails to meets its absolute responsibilities under existing treaties with the EU and/or its member states. It's not up to the EU to solve the Irish border issue, for example. It is inherently, the UK's responsibility.

So, my view is that TM did as much as anyone could do. And I give her credit for not giving up, because she knows very well that this is it. All of it. And the alternatives either do not execute the referendum result, or lead to a disaster, politically and otherwise.

Now, I'd argue whether the referendum result is an absolute mandate (technically, it isn't) but that's how the current government is interpreting it. And in that context, what TM got was the only outcome available. There simply isn't any other possible withdrawal agreement. And it's not her fault.
The problem is not between the EU and TM, it is between TM and Parliament. From Day 1 her strategy has been to minimize interference from any other party, and run this national, nay international, negotiation from the focus of her own political party. The mess we are in is entirely due to TM not advancing the WA negotiation on a cross party basis. And even now, she is still trying to force her unwanted deal on parliament.

Other deals were and are possible. They haven't been explored or debated because TM expended all her energy into bamboozling the country into her, no-more-immigrants version of Brexit.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 4:24 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
The problem is not between the EU and TM, it is between TM and Parliament. From Day 1 her strategy has been to minimize interference from any other party, and run this national, nay international, negotiation from the focus of her own political party. The mess we are in is entirely due to TM not advancing the WA negotiation on a cross party basis. And even now, she is still trying to force her unwanted deal on parliament.

Other deals were and are possible. They haven't been explored or debated because TM expended all her energy into bamboozling the country into her, no-more-immigrants version of Brexit.
She certainly didn't have to wait for hindsight to see any of this coming. Anyhow, for having now humiliated the UK on the world stage, & for having led her Cabinet, her Party, & HMG so poorly, she'll now have inescapably effed-up any chance she had for a baronetcy.
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