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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Mar 7th 2019, 8:43 pm
  #7591  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Met an old friend today, a Brexiter, he thought that everything would be done and dusted within 6 months of the vote.
He now thinks that we will remain in the EU for at least another two years..
He is bored to the back teeth with Brexit ..
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Old Mar 7th 2019, 8:56 pm
  #7592  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Met an old friend today, a Brexiter, he thought that everything would be done and dusted within 6 months of the vote.
He now thinks that we will remain in the EU for at least another two years..
He is bored to the back teeth with Brexit ..
Yep - that's about it. They had no idea what they were voting for.
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Old Mar 7th 2019, 8:58 pm
  #7593  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Met an old friend today, a Brexiter, he thought that everything would be done and dusted within 6 months of the vote.
He now thinks that we will remain in the EU for at least another two years..
He is bored to the back teeth with Brexit ..
I imagine there are a lot of people who think like that. You hear then on QT every Thursday, why haven't we left yet. Leave or Remain Brexit/EU will be top if the agenda for at least another 5 years. Thanks Dave (Cameron).
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Old Mar 7th 2019, 9:13 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
Well I can say, with complete certainty, that they see no value in having an 'EU identity', and they don't see value in any 'EU rights' either. My brother (and mum) are at the 'lower end' of the economic spectrum and are presumably therefore quite vulnerable. They are not concerned.
People at the lower end of the UK economic spectrum have had a bad time within the EU, so what have they got to lose?

Cue remainiacs telling us everything good is down to the EU and everything bad is down to the UK government.
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Old Mar 7th 2019, 9:28 pm
  #7595  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
People at the lower end of the UK economic spectrum have had a bad time within the EU, so what have they got to lose?

Cue remainiacs telling us everything good is down to the EU and everything bad is down to the UK government.
Remind , what ever happened to your economic cycles ?
Global banking crisis., Lehman Bros, etc
The rundown by Thtatcher & co of the old inefficient , uncompetitive, badly managed UK industries..
Which of the above is down to the EU..


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Old Mar 7th 2019, 9:36 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Met an old friend today, a Brexiter, he thought that everything would be done and dusted within 6 months of the vote.
He now thinks that we will remain in the EU for at least another two years..
He is bored to the back teeth with Brexit ..


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Old Mar 7th 2019, 10:58 pm
  #7597  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

You guys who are foaming at the mouth worrying about the demise of the UK's 'health and safety' rules and regulations (as a result of losing the protection of the EU and coming under the stronger influence of the US through trade agreements, etc) should perhaps consider the state of California and its relationship with the United States.

CA has an economy not unlike that of the UK (CA would be the 5th largest world economy were it independent) and the UK is the 6th largest. CA's population, at 40 million is close to the UK's population of 66 million. So a fair comparison perhaps. If the evil US with all it's lax health and safety laws could have a negative impact on the UK, don't you think it should have already had such a negative impact on CA? And yet - CA banned lead in gasoline in 1992, ahead of the US ban in 1996 (and when was lead banned in UK? 1999). CA banned smoking indoors in 1995; there is STILL not a US federal ban (when did UK ban smoking indoors? 2007). CA legalized marijuana for medical purposes in 1996; it's still illegal at the federal level (and when did UK legalize it for medical ... in progress as we speak perhaps?). CA voted to ban cages for hens, and give farm animals more room in 2018 - (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0dbe871a5f5b3 ); the list could go on and on.

Bottom line - CA seems to manage to implement rules and regulations that far exceed the US standards, despite being, well, 'part of ' the United States. But yet, the UK, as a 'mere trading partner' of the United States, will somehow have to give up all its hopes and principles in this regard once out of the EU ...

Time to lighten up, people ...
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Old Mar 7th 2019, 11:13 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
You guys who are foaming at the mouth worrying about the demise of the UK's 'health and safety' rules and regulations (as a result of losing the protection of the EU and coming under the stronger influence of the US through trade agreements, etc) should perhaps consider the state of California and its relationship with the United States.

CA has an economy not unlike that of the UK (CA would be the 5th largest world economy were it independent) and the UK is the 6th largest. CA's population, at 40 million is close to the UK's population of 66 million. So a fair comparison perhaps. If the evil US with all it's lax health and safety laws could have a negative impact on the UK, don't you think it should have already had such a negative impact on CA? And yet - CA banned lead in gasoline in 1992, ahead of the US ban in 1996 (and when was lead banned in UK? 1999). CA banned smoking indoors in 1995; there is STILL not a US federal ban (when did UK ban smoking indoors? 2007). CA legalized marijuana for medical purposes in 1996; it's still illegal at the federal level (and when did UK legalize it for medical ... in progress as we speak perhaps?). CA voted to ban cages for hens, and give farm animals more room in 2018 - (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0dbe871a5f5b3 ); the list could go on and on.

Bottom line - CA seems to manage to implement rules and regulations that far exceed the US standards, despite being, well, 'part of ' the United States. But yet, the UK, as a 'mere trading partner' of the United States, will somehow have to give up all its hopes and principles in this regard once out of the EU ...

Time to lighten up, people ...
It's a false equivalence. California is able to sell its goods throughout the US regardless of what regulations it puts on goods for sales within CA. In an FTA Britain will have restrictions on certain goods (tariffs or regs) going into the US unless it opens up desireable markets. Incidentally, it's not just food, manufactured goods will be included too.
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 1:13 am
  #7599  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
You guys who are foaming at the mouth worrying about the demise of the UK's 'health and safety' rules and regulations (as a result of losing the protection of the EU and coming under the stronger influence of the US through trade agreements, etc) should perhaps consider the state of California and its relationship with the United States.

CA has an economy not unlike that of the UK (CA would be the 5th largest world economy were it independent) and the UK is the 6th largest. CA's population, at 40 million is close to the UK's population of 66 million. So a fair comparison perhaps. If the evil US with all it's lax health and safety laws could have a negative impact on the UK, don't you think it should have already had such a negative impact on CA? And yet - CA banned lead in gasoline in 1992, ahead of the US ban in 1996 (and when was lead banned in UK? 1999).
And the EU banned leaded gasoline on 1st Jan 2000. Though it's apparently still available in the UK for classic cars from a single supplier.

CA banned smoking indoors in 1995; there is STILL not a US federal ban (when did UK ban smoking indoors? 2007).
https://ec.europa.eu/health/tobacco/overview_en

Currently, 17 EU countries have comprehensive smoke-free legislation in place. National measures tend to differ in extent and scope, with enforcement remaining an issue in some EU countries. Among these, Ireland, the UK, Greece, Bulgaria, Malta, Spain and Hungary have the strictest provisions with a complete ban on smoking in enclosed public places, on public transport and in workplaces.
CA legalized marijuana for medical purposes in 1996; it's still illegal at the federal level (and when did UK legalize it for medical ... in progress as we speak perhaps?).
And the sale and use of marijuana for recreational purposes has been tolerated in at least 1 EU member state since the 1970's in certain coffee shops.

CA voted to ban cages for hens, and give farm animals more room in 2018 - (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0dbe871a5f5b3 ); the list could go on and on.
https://www.eurogroupforanimals.org/...tion-in-the-eu

Thanks to successful international campaigns, major retailers and global food businesses have already announced they will phase out caged eggs from their supply chains by 2025, and more commitments are being published by the day. Additionally, under pressure from animal advocacy organisations several EU Member States and regions (Austria, Germany, Wallonia, and the Netherlands with the exception of colony cages) are now moving on to ban cages from egg production at national level, and more countries are likely to follow suit. A recently launched European Citizens Initiative to ban all forms of cages on european farms is likely to formalise citizens’ demand for a change in the EU’s laying hen legislation in this respect.
Bottom line - CA seems to manage to implement rules and regulations that far exceed the US standards, despite being, well, 'part of ' the United States. But yet, the UK, as a 'mere trading partner' of the United States, will somehow have to give up all its hopes and principles in this regard once out of the EU ...
It's because of State's rights, and the Tenth Amendment of the US Constitution protects that.

The Tenth Amendment (Amendment X) to the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, was ratified on December 15, 1791.[1] It expresses the principle of federalism and states' rights, which strictly supports the entire plan of the original Constitution for the United States of America, by stating that the federal governmentpossesses only those powers delegated to it by the United States Constitution. All remaining powers are reserved for the states or the people.
Bottom line. The US Constitution allows state's to set their own domestic rules in a wide range of areas, and there's been nothing stopping the UK from doing the same domestically as a member of the EU. All the EU does is sets common standards which member states are free to use as a baseline to improve on if they choose.

Time to lighten up, people ...
Yeah, let's lighten up. I've shone a light on why CA can make stronger laws than US Federal ones (and how many militia-types would get angry if the Federal gov't were to tell states they had to follow stricter rules). The UK was free to do the same domestically, but the risk from leaving the EU is that some Tory MPs suggest firms draw up list for bonfire of EU laws after Brexit

Two former cabinet ministers, John Whittingdale and Michael Gove, suggested to the CBI business group on Wednesday that companies should start drawing up a list of regulations they want to see abolished or reformed.

The two leave campaigners raised the prospect of EU laws being scrapped after the passage of May’s great repeal bill carrying over existing legislation, as they cross-examined witnesses at a session of the Commons committee on exiting the EU.

Gove highlighted a government-commissioned report by Marc Bolland, the former chief executive of Marks & Spencer, which ran through a list of EU employment protections it would like to see withdrawn or changed including pregnant worker proposals, the agency workers directive, the acquired rights directive and the working time directive.
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 2:01 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
...
Bottom line. The US Constitution allows state's to set their own domestic rules in a wide range of areas, and there's been nothing stopping the UK from doing the same domestically as a member of the EU. All the EU does is sets common standards which member states are free to use as a baseline to improve on if they choose.
OK, I need educating here. As a member of the EU, is the UK allowed to impose substantially higher standards than the EU, and refuse to sell product from EU that does not meet those higher UK standards, even though they fully comply with EU standards? I thought not. I would have thought that would constitute an unfair trade practice by EU definitions. So specifically - could the UK say, 'all UK producers must allow (some benefit to animals), AND - this is the important part - ban the sale of that same product from the rest of the EU that was raised contrary to this higher standard? It's my understanding that the UK could not do that as part of the EU - but with Brexit, could do that of course. I mention this because CA's new law bans the sale of any product, produced outside of CA, that does not comply with the new law. This effectively means the entire country is going to have to fall in like because CA (and Mass) are too big to ignore.

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Yeah, let's lighten up. I've shone a light on why CA can make stronger laws than US Federal ones (and how many militia-types would get angry if the Federal gov't were to tell states they had to follow stricter rules). The UK was free to do the same domestically, but the risk from leaving the EU is that some Tory MPs suggest firms draw up list for bonfire of EU laws after Brexit
So some Tory MPs want to do nefarious things. Don't vote for them. Or, as in the case of the US, force the issue with product suppliers and vendors. Here's another article, this time about Massachusetts' similar law - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0325452623771 . In it, it says "in the last two years every major grocery and fast-food chain in the country has pledged to use only cage-free eggs." So is there something unique about the UK that prevents a popular movement from achieving these kinds of results?
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 2:38 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
You guys who are foaming at the mouth worrying about the demise of the UK's 'health and safety' rules and regulations...
What happened to Mr Reasonable?

Bottom line - CA seems to manage to implement rules and regulations that far exceed the US standards
But still managed to be the source for E.Coli riddled Romaine Lettuce.
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 2:57 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
OK, I need educating here. As a member of the EU, is the UK allowed to impose substantially higher standards than the EU, and refuse to sell product from EU that does not meet those higher UK standards, even though they fully comply with EU standards? I thought not. I would have thought that would constitute an unfair trade practice by EU definitions. So specifically - could the UK say, 'all UK producers must allow (some benefit to animals), AND - this is the important part - ban the sale of that same product from the rest of the EU that was raised contrary to this higher standard? It's my understanding that the UK could not do that as part of the EU - but with Brexit, could do that of course. I mention this because CA's new law bans the sale of any product, produced outside of CA, that does not comply with the new law. This effectively means the entire country is going to have to fall in like because CA (and Mass) are too big to ignore.
The UK currently has to allow products that meet the EU standards to be sold in the UK. The UK can also raise standards for domestically-produced products to exceed the EU ones, and these can also be sold in the UK and EU.

What the UK could not have done was to produce and sell products of lower than EU standards in the UK and EU. However, post- hard Brexit, the UK could lower standards for products manufactured anywhere in the world to be sold in the UK.
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 3:02 am
  #7603  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
So some Tory MPs want to do nefarious things. Don't vote for them.
More voted for them than for the candidate with the next highest vote count. Democracy, innit!

Or, as in the case of the US, force the issue with product suppliers and vendors. Here's another article, this time about Massachusetts' similar law - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0325452623771 . In it, it says "in the last two years every major grocery and fast-food chain in the country has pledged to use only cage-free eggs." So is there something unique about the UK that prevents a popular movement from achieving these kinds of results?
You missed this in the post you responded to. https://www.eurogroupforanimals.org/...tion-in-the-eu

Thanks to successful international campaigns, major retailers and global food businesses have already announced they will phase out caged eggs from their supply chains by 2025, and more commitments are being published by the day. Additionally, under pressure from animal advocacy organisations several EU Member States and regions (Austria, Germany, Wallonia, and the Netherlands with the exception of colony cages) are now moving on to ban cages from egg production at national level, and more countries are likely to follow suit. A recently launched European Citizens Initiative to ban all forms of cages on european farms is likely to formalise citizens’ demand for a change in the EU’s laying hen legislation in this respect.
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 7:47 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
People at the lower end of the UK economic spectrum have had a bad time within the EU, so what have they got to lose?


(Cut to a sign saying 'How to Do It'. Music. Sitting casually on the edge of a dais are three presenters in sweaters - Noel, Jackie and Alan)

Alan: (John Cleese) Hello children.
Noel: (Graham Chapman) Hello.
Jackie: (Eric Idle) Hello.
Alan: Well, last week we showed you how to be a gynaecologist. And this week on 'How to Do It' we're going to learn how to play the flute, how to split the atom, how to construct box girder bridges and how to irrigate the Sahara and make vast new areas cultivatable, but first, here's Jackie to tell you how to rid the world of all known diseases.
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 8:47 am
  #7605  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Scenario no 1001 now being discussed.
May loses vote on her deal.
Parliament votes against no deal
Parliament votes for extension.
May trots of to Brussels and is told yes to an extension but it must be 12 months minimum or until agreement is reached.
May returns to Parliament informs them that the UK could remain in the EU for an indefinite period.
Mays deal gets her approved and we leave on the 29th...
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