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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Mar 1st 2019, 12:21 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Kudos to finding this now I am going to play the Devils Advocate.

Bringing together the peoples of Europe. This would fall in line with the peace and security and both regional and international development promoting growth and boosting world trade.What does this actually mean. In layman's terms does it mean get your shit together and stop fighting with each other and help each other out. Dont be protectionist.

Where does it say Freedom Of Movement of people within those countries or any mention of people being able to move within these countries to secure a living/job. IT DOESNT. Now granted some might read that it does. Again is it interpretation?
Well it wouldn't would it, given that freedom of movement came in with Maastricht, so if your focus with respect to the EU is only on preventing people from moving around (otherwise known as the dreaded "immigration") then you might or might not like it depending on how you view that. It should be noted that EU citizens pushed that development with cases in the EU courts in favour of expanding movement of capital to movement of persons, so I've read.

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Old Mar 1st 2019, 12:22 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

For clarification where I stand as there are numerous threads on this subject

I am an expat who couldn't vote. I am celebrating my 31st anniversary on arriving in Canada today. If you would have asked me 35 yrs ago what are your future plans the answer would have probably been well I have a decent job (copper) and I own my hose so see if I can make it to being a Detective or working with Special Branch or seeing if MI5 or 6 wanted me

Do I have any plans to move back to the UK at the moment well the current answer is No but in another 5 years who knows shit happens.

Is there a solution well isn't that why you elect representatives to Parliament to look after your interests and they make decisions on your behalf as giving the public a say in say a Referendum might not always be the best idea.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 12:31 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Well it wouldn't would it, given that freedom of movement came in with Maastricht, so if your focus with respect to the EU is only on preventing people from moving around (otherwise known as the dreaded "immigration") then you might or might not like it depending on how you view that. It should be noted that EU citizens pushed that development with cases in the EU courts in favour of expanding movement of capital to movement of persons, so I've read.
I can't even remember which thread yesterday I posted a reply on EU citizenship it might even have been this one probably now many pages back I was specifically mentioning the 1975 Referendum as it was insinuated that the voters were cheated and quite correctly the FOM was the Maastricht which came in 1992 some 17 years later. I think DLD nailed it by saying 41 yrs on same shit different day.

Found it

This is where I used to have fun with people on entering Canada.
Hi what country are you a citizen of?
The EU.
Mmmmm the EU here is a map of the world could you point to me which one is the EU
Errr its these 28 countries here
OK can I see your passport please
Here it is
So I examine the passport cover and I point out it says here on the cover European Union United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern iIreland and on the inside cover it mentions Her Britannic Majesty. So I ask the person is her Britannic Majesty mentioned on the inside cover of a French or German passport?
Dumbfounded look from the person.
So you are a citizen of the EU then OK now I know several countries in the EU have a Royal Family and an elected Government with a Prime Minister or similar name so who is in charge of the EU and why doesn't your passport say citizen of the EU and on who's authority should I allow you to pass freely and without let or hinderance and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary?

Watch persons head explode.

Also if this person is claiming EU citizenship and I find them inadmissible to Canada and they are living in the UK I can have them deported to any EU country like Romania?

Last edited by Former Lancastrian; Mar 1st 2019 at 12:39 pm.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 12:57 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
I can't even remember which thread yesterday I posted a reply on EU citizenship it might even have been this one probably now many pages back I was specifically mentioning the 1975 Referendum as it was insinuated that the voters were cheated and quite correctly the FOM was the Maastricht which came in 1992 some 17 years later. I think DLD nailed it by saying 41 yrs on same shit different day.

Found it

This is where I used to have fun with people on entering Canada.
Hi what country are you a citizen of?
The EU.
Mmmmm the EU here is a map of the world could you point to me which one is the EU
Errr its these 28 countries here
OK can I see your passport please
Here it is
So I examine the passport cover and I point out it says here on the cover European Union United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern iIreland and on the inside cover it mentions Her Britannic Majesty. So I ask the person is her Britannic Majesty mentioned on the inside cover of a French or German passport?
Dumbfounded look from the person.
So you are a citizen of the EU then OK now I know several countries in the EU have a Royal Family and an elected Government with a Prime Minister or similar name so who is in charge of the EU and why doesn't your passport say citizen of the EU and on who's authority should I allow you to pass freely and without let or hinderance and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary?

Watch persons head explode.

Also if this person is claiming EU citizenship and I find them inadmissible to Canada and they are living in the UK I can have them deported to any EU country like Romania?
Are you saying the Government of Canada does not recognise EU citizenship?
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 1:02 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I did see Wall-E, perhaps 20 times, and not because I was one the choosing it !

In it the humans weren't living in a fake world, but an inter-stellar ark looking for a new world, some 700 years in the future.
int


Ha ha ''inter. stellar' ark Shard ? That doesn't exist No more than my 'fake world description... I think you watched it too many times
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 1:12 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Kudos to finding this now I am going to play the Devils Advocate.

Bringing together the peoples of Europe. This would fall in line with the peace and security and both regional and international development promoting growth and boosting world trade.What does this actually mean. In layman's terms does it mean get your shit together and stop fighting with each other and help each other out. Dont be protectionist.

Where does it say Freedom Of Movement of people within those countries or any mention of people being able to move within these countries to secure a living/job. IT DOESNT. Now granted some might read that it does. Again is it interpretation?
No it doesn't , as has been said many many times. The EU has been a 'work in progress' It has had to move with the times as has every other country/ union / relationship, call it what you will on the planet. Nothing stands still. It's a Union whose every move has been VOTED FOR, TIME AND AGAIN BY THE UK GOVERNMENT. In fact figures were given awhile back,something in the region of 92% of all decisions have been backed or even proposed by the UK.

That the people of the UK don't know this? Now THAT is something to be pretty concerned about . They have been 'played' for years. Now they know it
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 1:16 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Kudos to finding this now I am going to play the Devils Advocate.

Bringing together the peoples of Europe. This would fall in line with the peace and security and both regional and international development promoting growth and boosting world trade.What does this actually mean. In layman's terms does it mean get your shit together and stop fighting with each other and help each other out. Dont be protectionist.

Where does it say Freedom Of Movement of people within those countries or any mention of people being able to move within these countries to secure a living/job. IT DOESNT. Now granted some might read that it does. Again is it interpretation?
The 1957 European Coal and Steel Community (which started to road to the EEC and EU) included the following;

Workers
As far as the movement of skilled workers was concerned, the ECSC countries had to remove restrictions on employment based on nationality. For the other categories of workers, and in the event of shortages of that type of labour, the countries were called upon to make the necessary adjustments to immigration rules to enable workers from other countries to be employed.
So there existed a limited form of free movement that removed nationality as a barrier to employment for nationals of the 6 member countries.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 1:21 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Are you saying the Government of Canada does not recognise EU citizenship?
Well Im not speaking of all members of the Government of Canada but I have yet to see a Passport or other document that can be used to enter Canada that has on it EU citizen. Our legislation refers to citizens of countries who require this and that to enter Canada especially visa requirements or who might be exempt from such requirements and nowhere does it mention a citizen of the EU is exempt. they mention other countries who are exempt. Do you have a picture of a EU passport or an EU citizenship card that states EU citizen?

Here is an official Government Of Canada website link regarding requirements for a visa. Put in the type of document travelling on eg passport then select the country code that matches the one on that passport. I assume a citizen of the EU would be EU.
See what results you get.

Find out if you need a visa

This is from the Immigration and Refugee Protection act Regulations which is an Act of Parliament and this section deals with who must present a passport for entry to Canada

52 (1) In addition to the other requirements of these Regulations, a foreign national seeking to become a temporary resident must hold one of the following documents that is valid for the period authorized for their stay:
  • (a) a passport that was issued by the country of which the foreign national is a citizen or national, that does not prohibit travel to Canada and that the foreign national may use to enter the country of issue;
  • (b) a travel document that was issued by the country of which the foreign national is a citizen or national, that does not prohibit travel to Canada and that the foreign national may use to enter the country of issue;
  • (c) an identity or travel document that was issued by a country, that does not prohibit travel to Canada, that the foreign national may use to enter the country of issue and that is of the type issued by that country to non-national residents, refugees or stateless persons who are unable to obtain a passport or other travel document from their country of citizenship or nationality or who have no country of citizenship or nationality;
Again please show me a EU passport, EU travel document that has citizen of the EU indicated on it.


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Old Mar 1st 2019, 1:36 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Well Im not speaking of all members of the Government of Canada but I have yet to see a Passport or other document that can be used to enter Canada that has on it EU citizen. Our legislation refers to citizens of countries who require this and that to enter Canada especially visa requirements or who might be exempt from such requirements and nowhere does it mention a citizen of the EU is exempt. they mention other countries who are exempt. Do you have a picture of a EU passport or an EU citizenship card that states EU citizen?

Here is an official Government Of Canada website link regarding requirements for a visa. Put in the type of document travelling on eg passport then select the country code that matches the one on that passport. I assume a citizen of the EU would be EU.
See what results you get.

Find out if you need a visa

This is from the Immigration and Refugee Protection act Regulations which is an Act of Parliament and this section deals with who must present a passport for entry to Canada

52 (1) In addition to the other requirements of these Regulations, a foreign national seeking to become a temporary resident must hold one of the following documents that is valid for the period authorized for their stay:
  • (a) a passport that was issued by the country of which the foreign national is a citizen or national, that does not prohibit travel to Canada and that the foreign national may use to enter the country of issue;
  • (b) a travel document that was issued by the country of which the foreign national is a citizen or national, that does not prohibit travel to Canada and that the foreign national may use to enter the country of issue;
  • (c) an identity or travel document that was issued by a country, that does not prohibit travel to Canada, that the foreign national may use to enter the country of issue and that is of the type issued by that country to non-national residents, refugees or stateless persons who are unable to obtain a passport or other travel document from their country of citizenship or nationality or who have no country of citizenship or nationality;
Again please show me a EU passport, EU travel document that has citizen of the EU indicated on it.
There is none that actually say 'citizen of the EU' on it, and I suspect that this is the point you're trying to make. But the EU does issue travel documents such as the Laissez-passer. These are on the list of travel documents



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Old Mar 1st 2019, 1:36 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
The 1957 European Coal and Steel Community (which started to road to the EEC and EU) included the following;

Quote:
Workers
As far as the movement of skilled workers was concerned, the ECSC countries had to remove restrictions on employment based on nationality. For the other categories of workers, and in the event of shortages of that type of labour, the countries were called upon to make the necessary adjustments to immigration rules to enable workers from other countries to be employed.


So there existed a limited form of free movement that removed nationality as a barrier to employment for nationals of the 6 member countries.
This is correct. Freedom of movement dates back, in fact, to the Treaty of Paris in 1951, when it was introduced for workers in the Coal and Steel industries. It's sobering to think how radical this was, given that France had been liberated from German occupation only seven years previously.

It was extended to all workers in the Treaty of Rome in 1957.

It was subsequently extended to cover people looking for work, dependents of workers, people of independent means, etc.

I don't think that, for the first three decades after the UK's accession, freedom of movement was really such a big issue for the UK. Having legislation "imposed by Brussels" was much more of an issue.

What really changed things was the accession of the A8 countries in 2004 and the correspondingly steep rise in EU migration to the UK.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 1:40 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
There is none that actually say 'citizen of the EU' on it, and I suspect that this is the point you're trying to make. But the EU does issue travel documents such as the Laissez-passer. These are on the list of travel documents

That they might well do but we only accept
  • (d) a laissez-passer that was issued by the United Nations;
So good luck getting into Canada with that EU one
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 1:58 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
What really changed things was the accession of the A8 countries in 2004 and the correspondingly steep rise in EU migration to the UK.
Which was entirely down to the UK's decision not to implement the available control on free movement from those countries. Only 3 countries (the UK, Ireland and Sweden) didn't implement those controls (and Ireland and the UK would have had to make the same choice due to the CTA), which would have lasted for 7 years. If the accession workers had had 18 countries to choose from, there'd have been less of an influx to the UK.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 2:14 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
This is correct. Freedom of movement dates back, in fact, to the Treaty of Paris in 1951, when it was introduced for workers in the Coal and Steel industries. It's sobering to think how radical this was, given that France had been liberated from German occupation only seven years previously.

It was extended to all workers in the Treaty of Rome in 1957.

It was subsequently extended to cover people looking for work, dependents of workers, people of independent means, etc.

I don't think that, for the first three decades after the UK's accession, freedom of movement was really such a big issue for the UK. Having legislation "imposed by Brussels" was much more of an issue.

What really changed things was the accession of the A8 countries in 2004 and the correspondingly steep rise in EU migration to the UK.
And this is where May's decision to call a halt to FoM as it currently operates conditioned what could be agreed about the future relationship, hence the stupidly asymmetric "we'll take the free trade in goods but you can keep the services, thanks", since any sizeable trade in services would almost certainly amount to making concessions on free movement. And services is where we have a significant surplus with the EU, whereas we have a deficit on goods
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 2:21 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Again please show me a EU passport, EU travel document that has citizen of the EU indicated on it.
It says it loud and clear to those to whom it matters, ie the citizens and governments and their agencies of the member states.

To the rest of the world, it's largely (but not completely) neither here nor there.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 3:02 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
It says it loud and clear to those to whom it matters, ie the citizens and governments and their agencies of the member states.

To the rest of the world, it's largely (but not completely) neither here nor there.
Exactly.


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