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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Mar 1st 2019, 10:30 am
  #6976  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
I've heard this so many times over the last few years 'we only voted for a trading partnership' or some such.

It's either ignorance or disingenuousness.
Interpretation is a wonderful thing. Well I think it means this and somebody will say well I think it means that
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 11:34 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by GeniB View Post
I think.. as has been surmised .. that we will become more machine than 'human' in the normal sense.
Did you see that great little cartoon film, Wall e ( spelling ) about the little computer left all alone after a catastrophic event that destroyed the world. ? It depicted that the remaining humans had all had to live in a 'fake' world run by machines. They had grown so fat and lazy that they had to be 'trolleyed' around on roller boards. They could no longer walk. They could also no longer think for themselves. Machines had completely taken over
As we now live partially in that world. It 's no longer a question of if... but when
I did see Wall-E, perhaps 20 times, and not because I was one the choosing it !

In it the humans weren't living in a fake world, but an inter-stellar ark looking for a new world, some 700 years in the future.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 11:38 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
I've heard this so many times over the last few years 'we only voted for a trading partnership' or some such.

It's either ignorance or disingenuousness.
Probably ignorance. It's a bit like the Brexiteers now insisting they voted for a No Deal, when at the time even Farage was pondering a soft Norway style Brexit. Memories are short.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 11:39 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Interpretation is a wonderful thing. Well I think it means this and somebody will say well I think it means that
Judgement is a wonderful thing, this officer thinks somebody is unreliable, that officer thinks he's fine.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 11:42 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
All fine except in 1975 the UK didn't have a referendum to be a member of the EU. The referendum was about staying in the Common Market, it was only about trade. So the British people were cheated, they were lied to. The 2016 referendum was the peoples decision to reverse that wrong.
Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
The question on the 1975 referendum paper was this:

The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.

Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?


Nothing in the question about it being "only about trade", and the political direction of the European Community was well known at that time.
Won't stop Paulry and others from believing and saying that they were "lied to" though. Government conspiracies and victimhood are core tenets of their entire belief system.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 11:47 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Judgement is a wonderful thing, this officer thinks somebody is unreliable, that officer thinks he's fine.
Lets not bother with ethical, lawful, justified, etc etc we would be here all day At the end of the day somebody has to make a decision. This one is more important than other ones.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 11:52 am
  #6982  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Probably ignorance. It's a bit like the Brexiteers now insisting they voted for a No Deal, when at the time even Farage was pondering a soft Norway style Brexit. Memories are short.
That is so true on both counts. Not wishing to do (all of) my fellow Brits down, but I would say that ignorance of the facts is more likely, especially when backed by manipulated media, easy as pie, etc.

Any disingenuousness now being exhibited - we voted for no-deal - are exactly that. There's likely a fair amount of ignorance behind that as well.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 11:55 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

And one more point on how the 1975 vote was represented - by both sides .

"During the 1975 campaign, membership of the European Community was presented by both the government and the Conservative opposition as relevant to peace, security, and both regional and international development, as well as to trade and economic cooperation.

In 1975 the government set out the aims of the European Community as bringing “together the peoples of Europe”, raising living standards and improving working conditions, promoting growth and boosting world trade. They also set out that the EC would “help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world” and “help maintain peace and freedom”.


In their October 1974 manifesto, the Conservative party outlined the two key ideas behind the EEC as being to maintain security within Europe and to allow European influence in the world, and control over its own affairs, to grow in a world of polarised superpowers."

https://fullfact.org/europe/ask-full...-then-and-now/

Naturally, the entity has further developed since then but to argue that it was "just trade" then is false. The relative costs and benefits as they are now should have been discussed during the referendum campaign, which was very unfortunately miserable - albeit for different reasons - on both side.

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Mar 1st 2019 at 11:59 am.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 11:58 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

What was the outcome of that referendum?
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 12:03 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
What was the outcome of that referendum?

67% to 33% for staying in, 64% turnout.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 12:06 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
What was the outcome of that referendum?
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
67% to 33% for staying in, 64% turnout.
Just to add that below the numbers (from Wikipedia)

The referendum result was not legally binding; however, it was widely accepted that the vote would be the final say on the matter[[i]citation needed] and would be politically binding on all future Westminster Parliaments.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 12:06 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
67% to 33% for staying in, 64% turnout.
Much more decisive back then. I recall meeting one of the Leavers back then, always banging on about the Common Market, I was a youngster so didn't give it much notice.
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Old Mar 1st 2019, 12:10 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Much more decisive back then. I recall meeting one of the Leavers back then, always banging on about the Common Market, I was a youngster so didn't give it much notice.

I don't think there was a xenophobic attack on EU membership either, at the time, although ditto on youngster and not paying attention. I do remember that there was plenty of xenophobic activity in the UK, particularly in London where I was. That isn't new - it just gets pointed at different things from time to time.

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Old Mar 1st 2019, 12:10 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
And one more point on how the 1975 vote was represented - by both sides .

"During the 1975 campaign, membership of the European Community was presented by both the government and the Conservative opposition as relevant to peace, security, and both regional and international development, as well as to trade and economic cooperation.

In 1975 the government set out the aims of the European Community as bringing “together the peoples of Europe”, raising living standards and improving working conditions, promoting growth and boosting world trade. They also set out that the EC would “help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world” and “help maintain peace and freedom”.


In their October 1974 manifesto, the Conservative party outlined the two key ideas behind the EEC as being to maintain security within Europe and to allow European influence in the world, and control over its own affairs, to grow in a world of polarised superpowers."

https://fullfact.org/europe/ask-full...-then-and-now/

Naturally, the entity has further developed since then but to argue that it was "just trade" then is false. The relative costs and benefits as they are now should have been discussed during the referendum campaign, which was very unfortunately miserable - albeit for different reasons - on both side.
Kudos to finding this now I am going to play the Devils Advocate.

Bringing together the peoples of Europe. This would fall in line with the peace and security and both regional and international development promoting growth and boosting world trade.What does this actually mean. In layman's terms does it mean get your shit together and stop fighting with each other and help each other out. Dont be protectionist.

Where does it say Freedom Of Movement of people within those countries or any mention of people being able to move within these countries to secure a living/job. IT DOESNT. Now granted some might read that it does. Again is it interpretation?

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Old Mar 1st 2019, 12:12 pm
  #6990  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by BuckinghamshireBoy View Post
Just to add that below the numbers (from Wikipedia)
The referendum result was not legally binding; however, it was widely accepted that the vote would be the final say on the matter[[i]citation needed] and would be politically binding on all future Westminster Parliaments.
Yet 41 years later, same shit, different day......
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