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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Sep 25th 2018, 10:27 am
  #286  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Is that directed at me, or are you just rambling? My disdain for Farage is incomplete.

Who wants to copy what he does? I actually do the job I was hired for.
Incomplete? So not a full disdain then.

You guys are saying that Farage said he'd ignore the referendum result and therefore it justifies why you similarly want to ignore it.
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 10:29 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
IMHO, not exactly, no. It just would have meant that more people had bought into Project Fear. It also would have been an ego boost for the EU and would have given them carte blanche to try to invade Britain even more than they have already.
Project Fear. Invade. You'll really say anything to avoid believing that Remainers actually understand the facts surrounding the EU than you do.

Honestly, I cannot put into words how much I hate the EU.
But why do you hate the EU? What does it need to do to stop you hating it?
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 10:39 am
  #288  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
amideislas is dead right.

Remainers complained long and hard about the question in the referendum before it happened - if you are unaware of that you weren't listening. The problem was that leave was undefined - anything from BRINO to hard - nobody knew. And we were right - nobody knows to this day.

If you need to check on that search back in this forum. But I don't expect you will - it wouldn't suit your agenda.
As someone who has always taken an interest in politics, I was particularly glued to every current affairs programme leading up to the referendum.
The format of the ref question was hardly discussed on either side. I say 'hardly' to give you the benefit of the doubt.
To be fair, I do distinctly remember Leavers moaning about the official pro EU document posted through everyone's door. But nobody seemed to be moaning about the ballot paper itself.
Incidentally, I didn't recall the NI border being discussed much at the time either.

I wasn't on this Forum back in the day, but I'll accept your word. You're probably more adept at pinpointing Posts than myself but I'm not sure what that would prove anyway, bearing in mind that most people follow discussions on mainstream media rather than snippets on a Forum. But if you want to prove your own point I'll be happy to read the relevant info.

My agenda? To respect the result of the 2016 referendum, the format of which was largely accepted at the time. Preferably with a deal that will unite the country. Fat chance of that if this Forum's anything to go by
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 10:44 am
  #289  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
The electorate were well informed at the referendum - there was a long run-up, the government sent a document to every household in the country explaining the benefits of EU membership, all the main political parties supported membership, all the main unions supported membership, the CBI and IOD and main business groups supported membership, the vast majority of luvvies and media types supported membership - if you wanted to know about the EU it was all there to see.

The withdrawal process is going smoothly, the vote was had, Parliament voted, Article 50 was enacted, negotiations about the future relationship are ongoing as one would expect. Sure there is plenty of grandstanding by the EU etc, but that is just normal negotiation tactics. The only issue impacting the smoothness is the anti-democratic elite-funded remainiac campaign that is handing extra negotiation strength to the EU.

It's a perfectly valid example of a democratic vote that would be unacceptable if it were overturned before it was even enacted. Who said it was on a par?

Love it a "confirmation" referendum to go with the "people's vote" - great messaging by those who would subvert democracy.
Well informed by the NHS bus, by assurances that it will be the easiest trade negotiation in the world, that we'll avoid a Turkish invasion, and that the EU needs us far more than we need them. NI wasn't discussed in any detail. Post vote, there was a surge of Brits looking up the meaning of Brexit. And post vote analysis demonstrated many voted out of protest to austerity or to spite the southern elites. Faulty referendum, wrong decision, true democracy demands a re-rest.
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 10:46 am
  #290  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post

But why do you hate the EU? What does it need to do to stop you hating it?
I'm wondering that too.
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 10:58 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
I would hope the deal is pout forward in a referendum BEFORE being signed off by Parliament (or not)
What would the point of that exercise if the EU could subsequently simply rejects it?

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
My understanding is that A50 can be extended. If there is genuine will in the UK to re-examine Brexit it's doubtful that Parliament or the EU would not find a way to adjust the timing. The question is whether there is sufficient time for the public mood to shift...maybe not.
So you only need a large and sustained shift in public opinion, followed by a General Election which changed the government and the agreement of the various EU institutions and all 27 EU countries in under six months.

There’s been no significant change in public opinion on the 2016 decision, most of the Labour PLP and all of the Tories are terrified of a Corbyn/McDonnell government and will do anything to prevent a General Election and the EU seems more than content to damage the wellbeing of their own member states rather than negotiate an amicable divorce to ensure that no-one else contemplates the possibility of leaving.

So much energy is being expended on the fantasy of a second referendum when it’s legislatively impossible to arrange either with the numbers or in the timeframe.
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 11:23 am
  #292  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Project Fear. Invade. You'll really say anything to avoid believing that Remainers actually understand the facts surrounding the EU than you do.



But why do you hate the EU? What does it need to do to stop you hating it?
I think it's fair to say that many Leavers do not hate the EU. Same way that most Remainers probably don't hate the Tory party - Although I can't speak for those on here.
I for one would have bee quite content if Cameron had succeeded in obtaining a few concessions and would probably have voted Remain, in spite of the fact that I disagreed with The Maastricht Treaty.
I've never witnessed the sort polarization that is now prevalent in the country - far worse than the 70s. Even people who previously had moderate views are being attracted to extremists because they happen to agree with one aspect of their ideology.
Cool heads are required. But little appetite for that. Regretably it seems that serious conflict is a real possibility.
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 11:41 am
  #293  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
What would the point of that exercise if the EU could subsequently simply rejects it?
Any deal that gets as far as the UK and EU Parliaments will already have been very much agreed by all 28 governments. It's probably very unlikely that the EU Parliament will reject it The UK Parliament probably won't either unless any referendum on the final deal/no deal convincingly shows a preference for no deal.
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 11:52 am
  #294  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Well informed by the NHS bus, by assurances that it will be the easiest trade negotiation in the world, that we'll avoid a Turkish invasion, and that the EU needs us far more than we need them. NI wasn't discussed in any detail. Post vote, there was a surge of Brits looking up the meaning of Brexit. And post vote analysis demonstrated many voted out of protest to austerity or to spite the southern elites. Faulty referendum, wrong decision, true democracy demands a re-rest.
Oh jeeze, not the wonder-bus. Perhaps we should drive one all around the EU and magically turn their heads as well, or the remainiacs should be driving a magic bus up and down the UK at the moment to change the vote.

One bus against the might of the political, financial and other elites, all unions telling their membership, all political parties (one small one aside) telling their membership and voters, all media figures telling their acolytes, the government of the day writing to everyone, yet one single bus wiped the floor with them all. Laughable.

Post vote there was a surge of remainers wondering what they had voted against? Their ignorance is astounding. Or do you have information that it was leavers who were googling?

Post vote analysis means nothing - you can have a post-match analysis by talking heads on a Man U game, the result doesn't get changed because Shearer doesn't like the outcome.

"wrong decision" - this is the reality, an inability of the petulant remainiac elite to accept their loss and instead kicking-out against democracy for a do-over.
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 12:02 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Any deal that gets as far as the UK and EU Parliaments will already have been very much agreed by all 28 governments. It's probably very unlikely that the EU Parliament will reject it The UK Parliament probably won't either unless any referendum on the final deal/no deal convincingly shows a preference for no deal.
May and Barnier can shake hands on a deal and the British electorate can approve it but it still has to be passed by all 28 national legislatures and it only takes Wallonia to say “Non” to scupper the whole thing.

Not that it will even get to that stage. The Parliamentary arithmetic doesn’t allow for a second referendum and so this whole discussion is rendered moot.
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 12:07 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Oh jeeze, not the wonder-bus. Perhaps we should drive one all around the EU and magically turn their heads as well, or the remainiacs should be driving a magic bus up and down the UK at the moment to change the vote.

One bus against the might of the political, financial and other elites, all unions telling their membership, all political parties (one small one aside) telling their membership and voters, all media figures telling their acolytes, the government of the day writing to everyone, yet one single bus wiped the floor with them all. Laughable.

Post vote there was a surge of remainers wondering what they had voted against? Their ignorance is astounding. Or do you have information that it was leavers who were googling?

Post vote analysis means nothing - you can have a post-match analysis by talking heads on a Man U game, the result doesn't get changed because Shearer doesn't like the outcome.

"wrong decision" - this is the reality, an inability of the petulant remainiac elite to accept their loss and instead kicking-out against democracy for a do-over.
The bus is a metaphor for the NHS pledge, it was quite a powerful lie. Do you remember the "Labour's not working" 70s ad campaign? Similar in impact.

It's easy to assume everyone was well informed, that everyone studied Dave's pamphlet, and weighed up the dry forecasts from the BOE, CBI, etc...in reality many got their information from the likes of Nigel, Boris and dubious internet advertising. You seem to be in denial on this? If you're so sure the public were well informed, then now they should be even better informed, and a second referendum would see the Leave vote soar...

You need to put your money where your mouth is Cape and put it to a vote. Otherwise it's just empty rationalisations of a fluke result, during the time of peak austerity and a refugee crisis which spooked the public.



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Old Sep 25th 2018, 12:19 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
What would the point of that exercise if the EU could subsequently simply rejects it?



So you only need a large and sustained shift in public opinion, followed by a General Election which changed the government and the agreement of the various EU institutions and all 27 EU countries in under six months.

There’s been no significant change in public opinion on the 2016 decision, most of the Labour PLP and all of the Tories are terrified of a Corbyn/McDonnell government and will do anything to prevent a General Election and the EU seems more than content to damage the wellbeing of their own member states rather than negotiate an amicable divorce to ensure that no-one else contemplates the possibility of leaving.

So much energy is being expended on the fantasy of a second referendum when it’s legislatively impossible to arrange either with the numbers or in the timeframe.
It's a long shot, but not a fantasy. Public mood is fickle. A few major factory closures, a lengthening list of technical problems post Brexit, sterling weakening further and some charismatic Remaniac might emerge to focus mood on a second referendum. Whatever is happening on Brexit would then be paused. It's a political process not physics.
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 12:49 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
It's a long shot, but not a fantasy. Public mood is fickle. A few major factory closures, a lengthening list of technical problems post Brexit, sterling weakening further and some charismatic Remaniac might emerge to focus mood on a second referendum. Whatever is happening on Brexit would then be paused. It's a political process not physics.
Is that all you've got? We were promised WWIII and we still voted Leave. You're clutching at straws and you know it.
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 12:54 pm
  #299  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Is that all you've got? We were promised WWIII and we still voted Leave. You're clutching at straws and you know it.
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Old Sep 25th 2018, 12:55 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Is that all you've got? We were promised WWIII and we still voted Leave. You're clutching at straws and you know it.
But what about the Bus?
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