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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Oct 19th 2018, 2:33 pm
  #1591  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
What part of the last sixty years of “ever closer union” would led you to believe it was anything but?
Brexiteers do seem to like cake. On one hand they claim it's an impending super-state, on the other hand it's a failed project with most other members desperate to break free. Which is it ?!?!
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 2:38 pm
  #1592  
 
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
What part of the last sixty years of “ever closer union” would led you to believe it was anything but?
Let me put it another way - do you hear no negative connotation in the term "federal superstate"? It's loaded.

And "ever closer union" means all sort of things. Personally, I consider the goals of a decline in aggressive nationalism, the absence of war between states, the ability to mingle freely without bureaucratic interference, the sharing of funding and support for the arts, sciences, and more, the uniform protection of human and workers' rights over a wider area (thereby strengthening them), the ability to trade together seamlessly and as a counter force to the US and Chinese giants (especially where trade and political goals intersect), are all the product of and benefits of an ever closer union. The term"federal superstate" implies all those things that we were told to fear, particularly "loss of sovereignty", EU armies, EU "making our laws" etc.

The EU is a voluntary organization - those who enter are mutually and freely agreeing to be bound by the same rules and regs. Of course some individuals within those entities don't want that, and they are free to not want it. And when a referendum is offered up they are free to express that opinion and if they make us leave then they make us leave. Both in the EU and in the UK, government is by the consent of the governed, and the fact that I think people made a shortsighted, ill-informed choice which was more of a stab in the dark than anything else doesn't change that.
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 2:45 pm
  #1593  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc



Very well put. If the tabloids had been epousing views like this instead of bitter and petty nationalistic diatribes we would not be in this situation.
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 4:10 pm
  #1594  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Remainers are content to see the UK become part of a European federal superstate;
I am not a supporter of an EU Federal superstate, and I have never seen a poster here wanting one. But the American Federal superstate seems to have resolved it's issues for the most part.

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
What part of the last sixty years of “ever closer union” would led you to believe it was anything but?
One of the UK's Opt outs is from this ever closer union. Which is an EU thing, not the 60 years ago ECSC.
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 4:44 pm
  #1595  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Remainers are content to see the UK become part of a European federal superstate...
That's probably the most loaded strawman I've ever seen.

Firstly, I don't know one remainer that would be content to the UK do that - you have made it up.

Secondly, is the EU is actually aiming to be a European federal superstate? It has never said so. I think you made that up too.

Thirdly, assuming you think that 'ever closer union' equates to 'we are aiming to become a European federal superstate' (which it doesn't) we were specifically exempt anyway.
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 5:16 pm
  #1596  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
That's probably the most loaded strawman I've ever seen.

Firstly, I don't know one remainer that would be content to the UK do that - you have made it up.

Secondly, is the EU is actually aiming to be a European federal superstate? It has never said so. I think you made that up too.

Thirdly, assuming you think that 'ever closer union' equates to 'we are aiming to become a European federal superstate' (which it doesn't) we were specifically exempt anyway.
As I have said before, did you read the wording if the draft EU Constitution? Abandoned because Giscard d'Estaing and Tony Blair got together and erased the reference to a federation to prevent British disapproval.
The Lisbon Treaty was the re-worded result and the Referendum ----in the Manifesto----wasn't held.

I agree I don't think the word "superstate" has been ever used.
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 6:55 pm
  #1597  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
As I have said before, did you read the wording if the draft EU Constitution? Abandoned because Giscard d'Estaing and Tony Blair got together and erased the reference to a federation to prevent British disapproval.
The Lisbon Treaty was the re-worded result and the Referendum ----in the Manifesto----wasn't held.

I agree I don't think the word "superstate" has been ever used.
Are you worried about the draft EU Constitution that has been abandoned ?
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 7:01 pm
  #1598  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
Are you worried about the draft EU Constitution that has been abandoned ?
Why would I worry? I am just pointing out the change of wording for the Lisbon Treaty. The essence of the Treaty is more-or less the same as the Constitution draft---just change of words. Approved by Tony Blair.
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 7:04 pm
  #1599  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Why would I worry? I am just pointing out the change of wording for the Lisbon Treaty. The essence of the Treaty is more-or less the same as the Constitution draft---just change of words. Approved by Tony Blair.
Thanks for that
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 7:32 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Remainers are content to see the UK become part of a European federal superstate; Leavers are not. Both are respectable political positions to hold. Denigrating more than half of the electorate as ‘xenophobic’ and economically illiterate’ only shows up your own ignorance, not theirs.
Exactly this - if some want ever closer union and to be ruled federally by Brussel's then it's a fair position to have, just as not wanting that is a fair position, but deliberately lying about this being the destination of the EU to try and boil the British frogs slowly until it's too late is disingenuous in the extreme.
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 7:38 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
One thing you have to remember Steerpike is that before the referendum you had a rump fo extreme brexiters to whom nothing about the EU was good or could ever be good, they were entirely blinded to a balanced view of the positives and negatives of membership and only saw outlandish negatives.

Since the referendum we have seen their remainiac cousins come to the fore - as you can see here, instead of admitting there is a considerable loss of sovereignty but arguing that the other positives outweigh this, they will argue there is a minimal loss even though a significant proportion of UK laws (up to 60%) now have the EU as the primary source - this goes into many everyday laws rather than just those enabling trade between countries. They are blind in their Europhile position, just as the swivel-eyed-loon brexiters were before them.
There are certainly plenty of 'swivel-eyed-loon brexiters' on this thread, and their arguments are shallow and unconvincing; they do not in any way help their cause - they are a disservice to their cause. But the issue of 'sovereignty' (loss thereof) is, to me, quite clear and by focusing on pedantic / legalistic interpretations does nothing to further the cause of the remainers. The statement above that I've bolded seems to be an entirely valid and reasonable statement of the situation - thanks for making it.
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 7:48 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Not technicalities, legalities.

The UK is one country under the Queen precisely because the Scots pooled sovereignty by treaty in 1707.

You stated there was no such thing as shared sovereignty. That's not assuming you don't understand my argument, that's you not believing it's a factual argument.
If the best example of 'shared or pooled sovereignty' is Scotland's relationship with England, that doesn't paint a terribly reassuring picture. "You're not losing sovereignty, you are just sharing / pooling it with Europe, just as Scotland did with England in 1707". Are the remainers saying they'd be happy for the UK to have the same relationship to Europe as Scotland has to England?
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 7:59 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
If the best example of 'shared or pooled sovereignty' is Scotland's relationship with England, that doesn't paint a terribly reassuring picture. "You're not losing sovereignty, you are just sharing / pooling it with Europe, just as Scotland did with England in 1707". Are the remainers saying they'd be happy for the UK to have the same relationship to Europe as Scotland has to England?




This one ?
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 8:26 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Let me put it another way - do you hear no negative connotation in the term "federal superstate"? It's loaded.

And "ever closer union" means all sort of things. Personally, I consider the goals of a decline in aggressive nationalism, the absence of war between states, the ability to mingle freely without bureaucratic interference, the sharing of funding and support for the arts, sciences, and more, the uniform protection of human and workers' rights over a wider area (thereby strengthening them), the ability to trade together seamlessly and as a counter force to the US and Chinese giants (especially where trade and political goals intersect), are all the product of and benefits of an ever closer union. The term"federal superstate" implies all those things that we were told to fear, particularly "loss of sovereignty", EU armies, EU "making our laws" etc.

The EU is a voluntary organization - those who enter are mutually and freely agreeing to be bound by the same rules and regs. Of course some individuals within those entities don't want that, and they are free to not want it. And when a referendum is offered up they are free to express that opinion and if they make us leave then they make us leave. Both in the EU and in the UK, government is by the consent of the governed, and the fact that I think people made a shortsighted, ill-informed choice which was more of a stab in the dark than anything else doesn't change that.
*** applause ***
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Old Oct 19th 2018, 10:25 pm
  #1605  
 
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Brexiteers do seem to like cake. On one hand they claim it's an impending super-state, on the other hand it's a failed project with most other members desperate to break free. Which is it ?!?!
I didn't claim any such thing but if the EU continues to suggest the solution to every problem it faces is 'more Europe' then it has the potential to unravel quickly. We're heading out the door, Italy elected a Euroseptic government which is flirting with the idea of abandoning the Euro and the Visegrad countries are increasingly resisting the diktats issued by Brussels. Each time the citizens of EU's member states have resisted being frogmarched down the route of a superstate and each time they have been ignored or asked to try again until they give the correct answer.
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