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Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Old Feb 22nd 2021, 1:33 pm
  #3676  
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Never ending roundabout

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Old Feb 22nd 2021, 9:00 pm
  #3677  
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
I've just been paying my daily visit to the local CBC page for today's report on Covid and the comments.
It's quite disheartening seeing some of the claims made but at least CBC is finally deleting some of the stuff there. You see it when someone replies but there's no post showing for someone to have replied to.

Tonight someone made a claim that the WHO had "finally admitted" something or other and he was asked to cite a source. "Just google the first 2 lines" he said. So I did.
What was the source, the only source using the words the writer used? Facebook.
So I used parts of the claim and up pops the fact check page saying it's all nonsense and the WHO said no such thing.

I linked to the factcheck page as a reply, saying he'd made a false claim and then I reported his post. Unfortunately on CBC that's all you can do. There's no category or any way to explain the reason to report it. But this method does seem to work as within minutes his post was gone - and so was mine, even though sometimes you see responses to something since deleted.

I think it might be better to leave the correction so people can see the false claim and who made it.

Especially as 20 minutes later this same guy made a claim about the CDC. He quoted something about vaccines - using the actual words on the website - and then quoted something about immunity to show how the vaccines were not real vaccines.

So using the genuine quote I found the CDC page he was using and then looked at Immunity. The CDC wording was nothing like he said.

So again I responded saying he had falsified the quote and I reproduced the real words. Again I reported his post. Flagging it they call it.

Minutes later his false post (and my response) is removed.

I wonder how many have seen it and been convinced in the time it's been visible. Or maybe someone else has copied it to pass on like he may have done in the first place.
Far better to spend your efforts 'over there' (CBC) than on here (BE) I would think, in terms of 'audience reach'. I would guess the readership on CBC is way more than BE. It would perhaps be better still to spend time fighting bullshit on FB, but I can't face it!

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Old Feb 22nd 2021, 9:06 pm
  #3678  
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
Far better to spend your efforts 'over there' (CBC) than on here (BE) I would think, in terms of 'audience reach'. I would guess the readership on CBC is way more than BE. It would perhaps be better still to spend time fighting bullshit on FB, but I can't face it!
This is just for New Brunswick CBC. Typical comment numbers on the daily covid reports are between 50 and 150 depending what's happened; exceptionally up to 200. I haven't worked out why they go high yet. No obvious reason
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Old Feb 22nd 2021, 9:10 pm
  #3679  
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Maybe I should sign up so I can have the pleasure of cancelling it.



What puzzles me is people's willingness to just 'pass something on' without even a cursory check. Everyone is familiar with the old "if something sounds too good to be true it probably isn't" warning so why can't that be applied similarly with a "is that really likely?"

What gets them so excited about something that makes them pass on something that sounds so incredible that the (real) media must surely have got wind of it? If it gets them genuinely interested why are they not checking it themselves instead of passing on the word of a stranger?
After spending a couple of months on one of the real nut-job sites, I can't begin to convey my disappointment in where things seem to be going. People are simply discounting anything that does not agree with their opinion. Any 'scientist' that does not agree with their pre-conceived bias is simply written off as 'part of the conspiracy'. Whenever they see anything that agrees with them - regardless of the 'qualification' of that source - they happily refer to it / link it / retweet it / whatever. I wonder if liberals have a share of the blame here; we are now actively encouraged to question many things we took for granted in the past - Washington bad, Lincoln bad, Voyages of discovery bad ... . The encouragement to 'question everything' may not be such a positive force in society!
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Old Feb 22nd 2021, 10:51 pm
  #3680  
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
After spending a couple of months on one of the real nut-job sites, I can't begin to convey my disappointment in where things seem to be going. People are simply discounting anything that does not agree with their opinion. Any 'scientist' that does not agree with their pre-conceived bias is simply written off as 'part of the conspiracy'. Whenever they see anything that agrees with them - regardless of the 'qualification' of that source - they happily refer to it / link it / retweet it / whatever.
What gets them to that point in the first place though?
I wonder if liberals have a share of the blame here; we are now actively encouraged to question many things we took for granted in the past - Washington bad, Lincoln bad, Voyages of discovery bad ... . The encouragement to 'question everything' may not be such a positive force in society!
I made a (repeat) post here a few weeks ago about how in my DSS days I had a change of office and instead of confrontation with the client group in the areas one office covered, I had a completely different, more diversified client group who questioned reasoning instead of getting abusive and threatening.

This was my awakening as I had to question 'why' instead of just 'do' as I'd been trained. I had to find answers to give.

The need for questioning or challenging the norm didn't drive me off into some shady world.

I can remember my early days on the internet reading about how the moon landings were faked. I'd already seen the movie Capricorn One. I didn't start sending this stuff around or even asking my mates if they'd heard this amazing scandal.
I love a good conspiracy so I should have been very receptive to the idea but I checked it out and found explanations for the inconsistencies in the official footage.

What turned paulry from just a regular poster into a full on conspiracy nutter?

I mean when people discover they've been misled about Santa and the Tooth fairy they don't reject everything they've ever been told.

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Old Feb 22nd 2021, 11:37 pm
  #3681  
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
What gets them to that point in the first place though?

I made a (repeat) post here a few weeks ago about how in my DSS days I had a change of office and instead of confrontation with the client group in the areas one office covered, I had a completely different, more diversified client group who questioned reasoning instead of getting abusive and threatening.

This was my awakening as I had to question 'why' instead of just 'do' as I'd been trained. I had to find answers to give.

The need for questioning or challenging the norm didn't drive me off into some shady world.

I can remember my early days on the internet reading about how the moon landings were faked. I'd already seen the movie Capricorn One. I didn't start sending this stuff around or even asking my mates if they'd heard this amazing scandal.
I love a good conspiracy so I should have been very receptive to the idea but I checked it out and found explanations for the inconsistencies in the official footage.

What turned paulry from just a regular poster into a full on conspiracy nutter?

I mean when people discover they've been misled about Santa and the Tooth fairy they don't reject everything they've ever been told.
I think it's going to become one of the pressing issues of our time. I suspect it has to do with 'the internet' and how these days, anyone can post anything, and equally, anyone can find anything. So if I get it into my head that (eg) vaccines are bad, I can probably google it and find not just one or two but hundreds or thousands of sites catering to that line of thinking. Couple that with (eg) facebook's 'algorithms', which promote controversy / conflict because they've discovered that conflict drives engagement (and thus eyeballs, and thus advertising revenue ...), and we are riding into dangerous territory.

Edit To Add - thought more about this ... when you and I read about the 'fake moon landing', we had no incentive to believe it, and in fact (for me, at least), a strong desire to disbelieve it (being a science student, a space fan, etc). When I read about 'anti-vax', I don't want it to be true because I think it's important for society. But imagine if the opposite were true; imagine if all your friends DIS-believed these things, and you wanted to 'fit in'. There would be an incentive for you to find more 'proof' to support your 'theory'. I think that's what is going on these days. While the chances of finding a 'group' in your neighborhood that believed these things were true would be unlikely, the internet has made finding 'like minded people' more practical.

Edit To Add (2) - we were also brought up to 'respect authority'. If the doctor said 'this will make you better', most people simply trusted the doctor. Back then, there really wasn't much of an option to challenge the doctor anyway. These days, thanks to the internet, you can come home and 'research' (read google results and think you are being informed). It may start simple; at first, you realize that some other respectable doctor 'somewhere' has a slightly different opinion (let's assume a legit difference of opinion), and that is the first sign of realizing that your doctor is not 'perfect'. But then you start finding totally contradicting opinions, and ... depending on how smart/intelligent/discerning you are, you may or may not reject these contradictory opinions. But the ability to explore and find alternatives seems to be a major contributor.

Last edited by Steerpike; Feb 23rd 2021 at 1:36 am.
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Old Feb 23rd 2021, 10:13 am
  #3682  
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

I hope there are not going to be loads of people very disappointed and losing out again

Holiday bookings surge in UK after lockdown exit plans revealed


https://www.theguardian.com/business...ns-easyjet-tui

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Old Feb 23rd 2021, 10:19 am
  #3683  
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
I hope there are not going to be loads of people very disappointed and losing out again

Holiday bookings surge in UK after lockdown exit plans revealed


https://www.theguardian.com/business...ns-easyjet-tui

It's all relative though, the numbers booking are still low. 6 times the virtually no existent traffic of last week, also the article says many of them are booking 2022.


Buy don't let that ruin a good headline!
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Old Feb 23rd 2021, 10:19 am
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Won the vaccination race? The race, as you call it, will be ongoing for many years with many new variants. Who knows where we will be at the end of this year? There is no winner, only a world where we can all travel and work freely without the need for masks and vaccination. My point is, I am questioning why the EU's efforts are the fault of Britain. The problem you highlight between Germany and Greece is the EU's insistence on solidarity. If Germany has more deaths because of EU solidarity it is not the UK's fault. The fragile situation is of the EU's making.
You are wasting your time with that idiot. He is simply anti-British. No matter what Britain does it's wrong. Ignore the fool.
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Old Feb 23rd 2021, 10:25 am
  #3685  
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by Phathamster View Post
It's all relative though, the numbers booking are still low. 6 times the virtually no existent traffic of last week, also the article says many of them are booking 2022.


Buy don't let that ruin a good headline!
Must admit I didn't notice the 2022 bit but my point is that I hope that Johnson didn't give too much hope to people that travel will be back to normal as from May.
Holiday countries will have their own regulations and it will all depend how quickly those countries can vaccinate full (2 doses) and what will be the entry requirement into those countries. I can see some of them might request visitors to be fully vaccinated before allowing entrance.
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Old Feb 23rd 2021, 11:39 am
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
Must admit I didn't notice the 2022 bit but my point is that I hope that Johnson didn't give too much hope to people that travel will be back to normal as from May.
Holiday countries will have their own regulations and it will all depend how quickly those countries can vaccinate full (2 doses) and what will be the entry requirement into those countries. I can see some of them might request visitors to be fully vaccinated before allowing entrance.

All he essentially said is that he was setting up a consultation that would report back by 12th of April on possibility of international travel.


Basically wait and see.
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Old Feb 23rd 2021, 1:06 pm
  #3687  
 
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
What gets them to that point in the first place though?

I made a (repeat) post here a few weeks ago about how in my DSS days I had a change of office and instead of confrontation with the client group in the areas one office covered, I had a completely different, more diversified client group who questioned reasoning instead of getting abusive and threatening.

This was my awakening as I had to question 'why' instead of just 'do' as I'd been trained. I had to find answers to give.

The need for questioning or challenging the norm didn't drive me off into some shady world.

I can remember my early days on the internet reading about how the moon landings were faked. I'd already seen the movie Capricorn One. I didn't start sending this stuff around or even asking my mates if they'd heard this amazing scandal.
I love a good conspiracy so I should have been very receptive to the idea but I checked it out and found explanations for the inconsistencies in the official footage.

What turned paulry from just a regular poster into a full on conspiracy nutter?

I mean when people discover they've been misled about Santa and the Tooth fairy they don't reject everything they've ever been told.
Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
I think it's going to become one of the pressing issues of our time. I suspect it has to do with 'the internet' and how these days, anyone can post anything, and equally, anyone can find anything. So if I get it into my head that (eg) vaccines are bad, I can probably google it and find not just one or two but hundreds or thousands of sites catering to that line of thinking. Couple that with (eg) facebook's 'algorithms', which promote controversy / conflict because they've discovered that conflict drives engagement (and thus eyeballs, and thus advertising revenue ...), and we are riding into dangerous territory.

Edit To Add - thought more about this ... when you and I read about the 'fake moon landing', we had no incentive to believe it, and in fact (for me, at least), a strong desire to disbelieve it (being a science student, a space fan, etc). When I read about 'anti-vax', I don't want it to be true because I think it's important for society. But imagine if the opposite were true; imagine if all your friends DIS-believed these things, and you wanted to 'fit in'. There would be an incentive for you to find more 'proof' to support your 'theory'. I think that's what is going on these days. While the chances of finding a 'group' in your neighborhood that believed these things were true would be unlikely, the internet has made finding 'like minded people' more practical.

Edit To Add (2) - we were also brought up to 'respect authority'. If the doctor said 'this will make you better', most people simply trusted the doctor. Back then, there really wasn't much of an option to challenge the doctor anyway. These days, thanks to the internet, you can come home and 'research' (read google results and think you are being informed). It may start simple; at first, you realize that some other respectable doctor 'somewhere' has a slightly different opinion (let's assume a legit difference of opinion), and that is the first sign of realizing that your doctor is not 'perfect'. But then you start finding totally contradicting opinions, and ... depending on how smart/intelligent/discerning you are, you may or may not reject these contradictory opinions. But the ability to explore and find alternatives seems to be a major contributor.

Disconnection from reality? A function of being told for so long that there are two sides to every "story" (there aren't) and the conflation of the idea of truth with that of opinion and belief? Accompanied by increasing tribalism, almost like religious fervour, whereby someone's personal preferences and beliefs actually change reality for that person? So in their minds, Trump really did win the election, Biden really is a communist, and vaccines really are part of a government plot to control us. Religious fanaticism is very hard to break, people have died for it for centuries. These believers may not recognise it as religion but their behaviour is the same.
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Old Feb 23rd 2021, 1:21 pm
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
As I said above every individual world wide needs vaccinating what is the point of arguing who gets it first or second?
It isn't an argument. Nor is it about first or second, but about large-scale priorities. Not everybody can get it "first", so the question becomes how the vaccines are distributed - in a concentrated way to the wealthy countries, and then to the poor countries, or evenly distrbuted across all countries as supplies become available. Economists and scientists have suggested that the latter method is the best way of containing the virus and the fallout. This is not just a humanitarian matter. If we fail to contain the virus in these poorer countries, there will be even more economic fallout in the richer countries.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and...ound-the-world

There have been a number of articles on this.

Gosh, it's almost as though we, and our interests, were all interconnected....


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Old Feb 23rd 2021, 1:36 pm
  #3689  
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
I hope there are not going to be loads of people very disappointed and losing out again

Holiday bookings surge in UK after lockdown exit plans revealed


https://www.theguardian.com/business...ns-easyjet-tui

My sister booked a holiday yesterday, due to leave May 17.
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Old Feb 23rd 2021, 1:59 pm
  #3690  
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Default Re: Off topic Political Posts moved from Coronavirus thread

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
It isn't an argument. Nor is it about first or second, but about large-scale priorities. Not everybody can get it "first", so the question becomes how the vaccines are distributed - in a concentrated way to the wealthy countries, and then to the poor countries, or evenly distrbuted across all countries as supplies become available. Economists and scientists have suggested that the latter method is the best way of containing the virus and the fallout. This is not just a humanitarian matter. If we fail to contain the virus in these poorer countries, there will be even more economic fallout in the richer countries.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and...ound-the-world

There have been a number of articles on this.

Gosh, it's almost as though we, and our interests, were all interconnected....
As I also pointed out in the post, it is those from wealthy countries that travel and spread the virus; so it is a also in the interest of all that they are vaccinated.
Also I pointed out that accusations of vaccine diplomacy against those countries that are distributing to other countries.
(Not that on 'global' TIO I can freely mention the country doing most in distribution )

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