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Lesser known American History

Lesser known American History

Old Mar 19th 2018, 6:13 pm
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Default Lesser known American History

I only just learnt today about how badly the church abused American natives. Maybe we should be blaming the church more and not westerners in general.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/justi...erican-history
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 7:36 pm
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Oh, America has a very sordid past. Much of which has been long forgotten.

When the subject of "federalising" the colonies into a bonafide "country" became the topic of the day, there was substantial "nationalist" backlash from the states. The "nationalists" in various states feared a loss of "sovereignty". Ultimately, the slave trade (and the "federalist's" opposition to it) was one of the incubators of the civil war. Lincoln was a "federalist". But now he's an icon of freedom and democracy.

Oh, how ironic history can be.
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 8:41 pm
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
Oh, America has a very sordid past. Much of which has been long forgotten.

When the subject of "federalising" the colonies into a bonafide "country" became the topic of the day, there was substantial "nationalist" backlash from the states. The "nationalists" in various states feared a loss of "sovereignty". Ultimately, the slave trade (and the "federalist's" opposition to it) was one of the incubators of the civil war. Lincoln was a "federalist". But now he's an icon of freedom and democracy.

Oh, how ironic history can be.

All countries that experienced the spread of western colonization or expansion resulted in the displacement and end of a culture and way of life of the indigenous people. You cant single out the US as the only guilty country.

Canada, Australia, New Zealand were all the same. Read up on the massacre carried out on the Zulu nation and the way Cecil Rhodes with his Maxim machine gun dealt with the "problem" of unwilling natives.
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 9:44 pm
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
All countries that experienced the spread of western colonization or expansion resulted in the displacement and end of a culture and way of life of the indigenous people. You cant single out the US as the only guilty country.

Canada, Australia, New Zealand were all the same. Read up on the massacre carried out on the Zulu nation and the way Cecil Rhodes with his Maxim machine gun dealt with the "problem" of unwilling natives.
It's fortunate, then, that nobody has singled out the US as the only guilty country.
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 9:47 pm
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
All countries that experienced the spread of western colonization or expansion resulted in the displacement and end of a culture and way of life of the indigenous people. You cant single out the US as the only guilty country.

Canada, Australia, New Zealand were all the same. Read up on the massacre carried out on the Zulu nation and the way Cecil Rhodes with his Maxim machine gun dealt with the "problem" of unwilling natives.
Most of that was not happening in the 1960's. It's easy to forget the abuse that has happened in the last 60-70 years, within living memory.

I'm am not sure your age, but I am assuming you were not living during any of the events you mentioned.
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 10:27 pm
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Originally Posted by mrken30 View Post
Most of that was not happening in the 1960's. It's easy to forget the abuse that has happened in the last 60-70 years, within living memory.

I'm am not sure your age, but I am assuming you were not living during any of the events you mentioned.
No I wasn't living during the events I mentioned but there are fairly written history books and documentaries which cover all these events. The Australian Aborigines, the New Zealand Maoris, the native American tribes in Canada and closer to home the history of Ireland from Norman times up.. until 1922. With the exception of Ireland some of the abuses still take place today in the countries I mentioned. I'm not denying the things that happened in America nor trying to justify it when I bring up the whole history of invasion and colonization. No country has a clean slate on this subject, not Britain, not France, not Spain, not Holland, not Portugal, not Belgium. All can hang their heads in shame. Under the guise of bringing Christianity and "civilization" to the indigenous peoples of countries across the globe it was a time of looting and exploiting the subject peoples and the mass removal of natural resources without just compensation.

Just trying to set the record straight
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 10:36 pm
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
No I wasn't living during the events I mentioned but there are fairly written history books and documentaries which cover all these events. The Australian Aborigines, the New Zealand Maoris, the native American tribes in Canada and closer to home the history of Ireland from Norman times up.. until 1922. With the exception of Ireland some of the abuses still take place today in the countries I mentioned. I'm not denying the things that happened in America nor trying to justify it when I bring up the whole history of invasion and colonization. No country has a clean slate on this subject, not Britain, not France, not Spain, not Holland, not Portugal, not Belgium. All can hang their heads in shame. Under the guise of bringing Christianity and "civilization" to the indigenous peoples of countries across the globe it was a time of looting and exploiting the subject peoples and the mass removal of natural resources without just compensation.

Just trying to set the record straight
It is pointless trying to apply our standards to past events.
The Victorians while exploiting those nations they were colonizing were no longer burning witches or those of a different religion.
They thought themselves more enlightened than those who came before them.
The value of history is That we learn from it and try not to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Although we are not making a good job of it are we ?
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 10:57 pm
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Erm. It is Maori not Maoris per their own preference. Not sure there is abuse here in NZ today in the context referenced. There is certainly though a socio-economic difficulty for some communities and whanau as there are for some pakeha. Not all.

For some insight into NZ history perhaps read The Great Divide by Ian Wishart.

Then read the everlasting whinges from assorted pakeha and maori about the meaning of and behind Whaitangi treaty , meanwhile remembering that for many New Zealanders it holds little interest in today's NZ other than being a national holiday .
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 11:15 pm
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
Erm. It is Maori not Maoris per their own preference. Not sure there is abuse here in NZ today in the context referenced. There is certainly though a socio-economic difficulty for some communities and whanau as there are for some pakeha. Not all.

For some insight into NZ history perhaps read The Great Divide by Ian Wishart.

Then read the everlasting whinges from assorted pakeha and maori about the meaning of and behind Whaitangi treaty , meanwhile remembering that for many New Zealanders it holds little interest in today's NZ other than being a national holiday .


Except that there are an unusually high number of Maori serving jail sentences and alcoholism is a problem.

True or false?

This info from a poster on another Forum who is a New Zealander

As a displaced people they have every right to occasionally whinge BTW... for whatever good it will do them
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 11:23 pm
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
It is pointless trying to apply our standards to past events.
The Victorians while exploiting those nations they were colonizing were no longer burning witches or those of a different religion.
They thought themselves more enlightened than those who came before them.
The value of history is That we learn from it and try not to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Although we are not making a good job of it are we ?

Oh yes the Victorians. Child labour, work houses etc. Definitely an enlightened lot. There were indigenous people who lived a life style far better and caring than what the missionaries thought they could teach them
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 12:16 am
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
Oh yes the Victorians. Child labour, work houses etc. Definitely an enlightened lot. There were indigenous people who lived a life style far better and caring than what the missionaries thought they could teach them
You are applying todays thinking to a different world of values and morals.
In years to come some may read your views on gun control etc etc and think what a primitive world that was.
We can comment but are in no fit state to judge when our world is far from perfect.
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 12:27 am
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

While I understand the argument that they were different times, different morals and standards, that we can not judge, this argument ignores the fact that most of these events were opposed by others, there was not universal support for the actions. A lot of the change in society is not so much changing morality, as changing power structures.
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 12:53 am
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
Except that there are an unusually high number of Maori serving jail sentences and alcoholism is a problem.
True or false?
This info from a poster on another Forum who is a New Zealander
As a displaced people they have every right to occasionally whinge BTW... for whatever good it will do them
Too quick to jump .
What I wrote was this

"There is certainly though a socio-economic difficulty for some communities and whanau as there are for some pakeha. Not all."

Those identifying as Maori are certainly not displaced at all. Some feel grievance . Most do not. Same for those identifying as Pakeha . Both, incidentally, can have both Maori and Pakeha 'blood' so would be actually whinging for or against themselves and their mixed ancestry.

Please do read the book I suggested. So much better than someone's subjective view.

I could go further in depth about Iwi and the distribution & management of funds, land, assets following waitangi day settlements but that would highjack this thread.
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 5:57 am
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
Too quick to jump .
What I wrote was this

"There is certainly though a socio-economic difficulty for some communities and whanau as there are for some pakeha. Not all."

Those identifying as Maori are certainly not displaced at all. Some feel grievance . Most do not. Same for those identifying as Pakeha . Both, incidentally, can have both Maori and Pakeha 'blood' so would be actually whinging for or against themselves and their mixed ancestry.

Please do read the book I suggested. So much better than someone's subjective view.

I could go further in depth about Iwi and the distribution & management of funds, land, assets following waitangi day settlements but that would highjack this thread.


There was a New Zealand infantry regiment at our base in Malaya. Some of them were Maori. They were a great bunch of lads
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 6:04 am
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Default Re: Lesser known American History

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
You are applying todays thinking to a different world of values and morals.
In years to come some may read your views on gun control etc etc and think what a primitive world that was.
We can comment but are in no fit state to judge when our world is far from perfect.
And many of the worlds problems today come from the mistakes and bad decisions of the past
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