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Las Vegas shooting

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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:12 pm
  #106  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
Suggestions please on how to confiscate around 300 million firearms and yes there are estimated to be that number in circulation.
Start with prevent the sale of certain types of weapons, as has been done with the sale of machine guns to the public. Start with weapons (and magazines) with a capacity of more than 10rds each. Restrict the quantities of ammo sold to each licence holder annually.

Then as firearms licences are renewed, qradually reduce the number of weapons permitted by licence holders.

Removing large numbers of weapons from circulation is a long-term job.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:13 pm
  #107  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
Well maybe. But the data shows a steady and significant decline in gun ownership from the 1970s till now. Octang F. doubted the reliability of that data, he may be correct, I was just wondering what grounds he had.
I doubt the validity as well. Those studies involved individual polling and relied on self admitted ownership. Unreliable at best. This is a more accurate picture.

The growth of new firearms in the USA since 1986 is over 185 million

Yearly growth of new firearms in the United States | Datagraver
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:19 pm
  #108  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Start with prevent the sale of certain types of weapons, as has been done with the sale of machine guns to the public. Start with weapons (and magazines) with a capacity of more than 10rds each. Restrict the quantities of ammo sold to each licence holder annually.
Given that a magazine swap takes about 1 second, this is not a valid proposal. Even ancient Garands and Mausers that lack a detachable magazine can be reloaded very quickly. An experienced shooter with a Lee Enfield bolt action can get off shots at essentially semi-auto speed.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:37 pm
  #109  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
Given that a magazine swap takes about 1 second, this is not a valid proposal. Even ancient Garands and Mausers that lack a detachable magazine can be reloaded very quickly. An experienced shooter with a Lee Enfield bolt action can get off shots at essentially semi-auto speed.
No enfield can match the speed of semi auto. An average shooter can do 2 rounds per second and an accomplished shooter can do 3 with semi auto. With a bolt action one shot ever 2 seconds would be exceptional. Even firing with your middle finger and your thumb and index finger never leaving the bolt. And swapping out the magazine in 1 sec is a bit of fantasy. Then there is the recoil of an Enfield that basically requires you to re-aim. No such problem with an AR15 or M16.

Last edited by dakota44; Oct 2nd 2017 at 10:52 pm.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:41 pm
  #110  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by caretaker View Post
Obama tried after Sandy Hook, made an empassioned plea but couldn't beat the gun lobby. The NRA spent 30 million dollars getting Trump elected, don't expect any change.
^^
This.

and this
Originally Posted by BritInParis
If Sandy Hook didn't convince people to change things then nothing will.
I have heard that sales of guns have gone up since this latest mass shooting. *sigh*

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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:44 pm
  #111  
 
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
No really. Disarm the country as Lion said. How ?
In no particular order.


1. Remove most types of weapons from sale. Hunting rifles and shotguns, may be allowed. Period.

2. Stop funding dirt cheap weapons by providing public subsidies to weapons manufacturers. You can buy a deadly weapon for peanuts.

3. Tax the shit out of the ones that are sold and use the funds for economic development and education in poor areas.

4. Uniform licensing laws, tough ones, across all states, for hunting rifles/shotguns.

5. Remove the self defence myth and the idea that differences are settled by weapons. No walking around armed, concealed or not.

6. No leaving weapons lying around. Your hunting weapon is in a locked cabinet, unloaded, except when you are actually hunting.

7. No guns in Walmart, etc. Specialist stores capable of managing the licensing only and heavily supervised.

8. If you own a hunting weapon, register it and reregister it regularly to prove you still have it. Inconvenient? Don't care.

9. Buy back program.

10. Manage customs and imports.Nothing but the allowed types get in.

11. Not complying? You are breaking the law - you will not be glorified, you will be arrested.

That should get us started.Problems? Of course. But it beats praying and saying we can't do anything.

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Oct 2nd 2017 at 10:47 pm.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:48 pm
  #112  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
That goes without saying. But it's even worse than that. I feel like he would escalate it and use it to intentionally turn us against each other and hate each other more and more.

This is what we've come to. A nation whose president makes tragedies worse.
I totally agree.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:50 pm
  #113  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by Octang Frye View Post
How is that a false equivalency? People out to murder large numbers of people.
The equivalence is not the motive, but the method. Guns, especially automatic guns, make it far too easy and 'thrilling'. You can't take psychology out of it.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:52 pm
  #114  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
Given that a magazine swap takes about 1 second, this is not a valid proposal. Even ancient Garands and Mausers that lack a detachable magazine can be reloaded very quickly. An experienced shooter with a Lee Enfield bolt action can get off shots at essentially semi-auto speed.
Garands aren't ancient!

Magazine bans don't work and are silly. Hiro's right. Here in Colorado, they passed some feel-good legislation after the Aurora cinema thing. Went from standard capacity magazines (30 rounds) to some arbitrary number (15).

Anyway, Magpul Industries - which makes standard capacity magazines, and supplies the US Marines - said screw you to the politicians, upped and left the state taking 2-300 jobs with them. Before they went, they gave away thousands and thousands of magazines to Coloradoans. I think I got about 10. They're durable and will last.

Anyway, the Virginia Tech shooter used ten round magazines. As did the Columbine kids. Magazine capacity doesn't make a difference.

Obviously, I'm a gun guy, and I don't want to see guns go away. But the people here who are advocating a 20 year time frame - I think you guys have the most realistic chance / plan to reduce firearm ownership. You shift the window, like smoking.

Also, people who want guns to go away - it would really help you and your cause if you actually understood something about the thing you're trying to legislate against. Otherwise you sound like an idiot and - perhaps more significantly - you can introduce poor legislation because of that ignorance.

Local Rep. Diana DeGette on the 15 round law:
“These are ammunition, they’re bullets, so the people who have those now, they’re going to shoot them, so if you ban them in the future, the number of these high-capacity magazines is going to decrease dramatically over time because the bullets will have been shot and there won’t be any more available.”

Conflates magazines with ammunition.
Magazines aren't going anywhere. I kept mine - and everyone I know kept theirs.

Also, some guns are extremely durable and will last potentially indefinitely, if they're cared for correctly. Guns like revolvers, or semi-autos like the 1911, or just rifles that are cleaned and maintained properly. Polymer guns in theory will break down over time, due to sunlight.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:52 pm
  #115  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
Given that a magazine swap takes about 1 second, this is not a valid proposal. Even ancient Garands and Mausers that lack a detachable magazine can be reloaded very quickly. An experienced shooter with a Lee Enfield bolt action can get off shots at essentially semi-auto speed.
So you're suggesting that because some can change a magazine in a second that we shouldn't reduce the magazine size?

10 x 30rd magazines = 300rds. 10 x 10rd magazines = 100rds. Ok, so the 10rd mags will take up a little less space and weighs less, but definitely not enough to carry an extra 20 magazines (maybe 5-10 extra).
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:53 pm
  #116  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
I totally agree.
When I heard that Trump had called for a minutes silence, my first response was that I would not take part in anything he is associated with.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:55 pm
  #117  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
The equivalence is not the motive, but the method. Guns, especially automatic guns, make it far too easy and 'thrilling'. You can't take psychology out of it.
That makes no sense to me whatsoever. It's a complete equivalence. Mass murder - the only difference is the means. The outcome is the same.

Also, please clarify what you mean by automatic guns.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:55 pm
  #118  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by Octang Frye View Post
Garands aren't ancient!

Magazine bans don't work and are silly. Hiro's right. Here in Colorado, they passed some feel-good legislation after the Aurora cinema thing. Went from standard capacity magazines (30 rounds) to some arbitrary number (15).

Anyway, Magpul Industries - which makes standard capacity magazines, and supplies the US Marines - said screw you to the politicians, upped and left the state taking 2-300 jobs with them. Before they went, they gave away thousands and thousands of magazines to Coloradoans. I think I got about 10. They're durable and will last.

Anyway, the Virginia Tech shooter used ten round magazines. As did the Columbine kids. Magazine capacity doesn't make a difference.

Obviously, I'm a gun guy, and I don't want to see guns go away. But the people here who are advocating a 20 year time frame - I think you guys have the most realistic chance / plan to reduce firearm ownership. You shift the window, like smoking.

Also, people who want guns to go away - it would really help you and your cause if you actually understood something about the thing you're trying to legislate against. Otherwise you sound like an idiot and - perhaps more significantly - you can introduce poor legislation because of that ignorance.

Local Rep. Diana DeGette on the 15 round law:
“These are ammunition, they’re bullets, so the people who have those now, they’re going to shoot them, so if you ban them in the future, the number of these high-capacity magazines is going to decrease dramatically over time because the bullets will have been shot and there won’t be any more available.”

Conflates magazines with ammunition.
Magazines aren't going anywhere. I kept mine - and everyone I know kept theirs.

Also, some guns are extremely durable and will last potentially indefinitely, if they're cared for correctly. Guns like revolvers, or semi-autos like the 1911, or just rifles that are cleaned and maintained properly. Polymer guns in theory will break down over time, due to sunlight.
Fair enough. I doubt you'll be going postal though.... If the company was giving away illegal magazines, shouldn't they have been prosecuted?

Mind you, the Las Vegas guy wasn't flagged either.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 10:55 pm
  #119  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
When I heard that Trump had called for a minutes silence, my first response was that I would not take part in anything he is associated with.
Could you not take the knee instead?
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 11:07 pm
  #120  
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Default Re: Las Vegas shooting

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
So you're suggesting that because some can change a magazine in a second that we shouldn't reduce the magazine size?
.
It took the Las Vegas murderer a lot longer than a second to reload.
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