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I don't really know where to put this

I don't really know where to put this

Old Aug 21st 2019, 8:56 pm
  #346  
 
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
Was that part of Operation Bertram? The decoy and deception effort in the run-up to the second Battle of El Alamein is one of the most extraordinary stories of WW2 history. I can't remember the title of the book I read on it a few years ago, but it was a fantastic (in the original sense of the word) effort: X Corps managed to convince Rommel's forces that (1) they had almost twice as many armoured vehicles as they actually had, (2) the attack would be launched nearly 30 miles south of its actual location, and (3) preparations were at least a couple of weeks away from completion by the time the attack was launched.

There was even a double-bluff where some of the dummy artillery was deliberately rather poorly made and allowed to deteriorate, so that the Germans recognized it as a decoy; then, on the eve of the battle, the dummies were replaced with real artillery and nobody on the receiving end suspected a thing until they opened fire.

I didn't realize there was an acoustic deception element to all this as well. That's just even more brilliant!


ETA: the book was "The Phantom Army of Alamein" by Rick Stroud (Bloomsbury, 2012). Unlikely still to be in bookstores, but your local online bookseller can probably still find a copy in the back of a warehouse somewhere.

I'll have to hunt that down, but that must have been it. He really didn't like to talk about the war at all, so it was very hard to get any details. There are a few mentions of his name in the regimental diaries of the time, which are both fascinating and odd to read.

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Aug 21st 2019 at 9:00 pm.
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 8:56 pm
  #347  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by The Rushman View Post
Oh look .... and from your favourite poncing newspaper no doubt.
Seems I was spot on.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...66501710626537


"Hundreds of thousands of slaves freed during the American civil war died from disease and hunger AFTER being liberated, according to a new book.

The analysis, by historian Jim Downs of Connecticut College, casts a shadow over one of the most celebrated narratives of American history, which sees the freeing of the slaves as a triumphant righting of the wrongs of a southern plantation system that kept millions of black Americans in chains."
History Professor researches and publishes book.

I'm sure he's correct in what he writes, but that was always going to happen when slaves became free, because no-one was going to automatically give them jobs for pay. It was a sad state of affairs, but what would you suggest could have been done, other than keeping them in slavery.

Is there a comparison of how many other Americans died of the same things during the same period?
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 8:59 pm
  #348  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by The Rushman View Post
So not one single slave found him/herself homeless, starving, malnourished and closer to death through starvation or beaten/killed at the hands of bitter overseers immediately after the end of slavery?

That you for clearing that up Alex Haley.
May I refer the right dishonourable gentleman to my previous answers. Please ask someone to read them to you, as you have displayed a tendency towards poor comprehension.
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:10 pm
  #349  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by The Rushman View Post
. I wasnt referring to sharecroppers .
I now understand that you are just too ignorant to even understand why sharecropping is relevant to the question.
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:11 pm
  #350  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Troll and unable, or unwilling to read, I have already answered the question you claim I didn't, and I also assigned the reasons, but you objected to me saying so, your bizzare reason was because you hadn't mentioned it.
Complain about some who don't answer, complain when some do answer. Typical troll behavior.
Im genuinely laughing my tits off.
Wont read a link from the bastion of lefty thinking because it smashes your opinion to tiny fragments. Write to tge Guardian and ask them for your fiver back.
Or just call me a troll instead (even though my history on this forum is plain to see). The fact is you were doing the trolling because I was asking Leslie but you wanted to dive in and daub your ill thought out opinions, a bit of cyber showponying and deliberate context twisting.
This is seriously funny. Youve been owned Sunshine.

Oh wait!!! I bet Conneticut University and the Authour are goosestepping Nazis right?

You are a absolute perineum.
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:13 pm
  #351  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
I now understand that you are just too ignorant to even understand why sharecropping is relevant to the question.
The slaves that were freed on monday didnt become sharecroppers on tuesday did they?
Read the article you ostrich .... youre wrong. Conneticut University says so.
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:14 pm
  #352  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by The Rushman View Post
Im genuinely laughing my tits off.
Wont read a link from the bastion of lefty thinking because it smashes your opinion to tiny fragments. Write to tge Guardian and ask them for your fiver back.
Or just call me a troll instead (even though my history on this forum is plain to see). The fact is you were doing the trolling because I was asking Leslie but you wanted to dive in and daub your ill thought out opinions, a bit of cyber showponying and deliberate context twisting.
This is seriously funny. Youve been owned Sunshine.

Oh wait!!! I bet Conneticut University and the Authour are goosestepping Nazis right?

You are a absolute perineum.

"Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists"



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psy...-sadists%3famp
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:15 pm
  #353  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
May I refer the right dishonourable gentleman to my previous answers. Please ask someone to read them to you, as you have displayed a tendency towards poor comprehension.
May I refer the dickhead to the Guardian article he refuses to read.
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:16 pm
  #354  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post

"Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists"



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Hundreds of thousands of slaves freed during the American civil war died from disease and hunger after being liberated, according to a new book.

The analysis, by historian Jim Downs of Connecticut College, casts a shadow over one of the most celebrated narratives of American history, which sees the freeing of the slaves as a triumphant righting of the wrongs of a southern plantation system that kept millions of black Americans in chains.

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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:29 pm
  #355  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
History Professor researches and publishes book.

I'm sure he's correct in what he writes, but that was always going to happen when slaves became free, because no-one was going to automatically give them jobs for pay. It was a sad state of affairs, but what would you suggest could have been done, other than keeping them in slavery.

Is there a comparison of how many other Americans died of the same things during the same period?
Yeah that was always going to happen ..... now a link to a University Professor saying it did happen has been posted.

I have no opinion formed on what couldve been done ... ive been too busy fighting off the lefties here pretending or ignoring what the Professor claims.

As for a comparison .... is that going to be your get out of jail card? "The freed slaves werent the only ones ... whites died too so it cant be because of tge end of slavery ... ner ner - ner ner ner!" ... that still doesnt negate my whole initial point that has bent so many out of shape unnecessarily.
A number of slaves did die and suffer more as a result of slavery being abolished. All i did was ask Leslie if she agreed with that to start a debate but she went pearshaped and then Kameldung poked his bugle in.
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:32 pm
  #356  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by The Rushman View Post
Hundreds of thousands of slaves freed during the American civil war died from disease and hunger after being liberated, according to a new book.

The analysis, by historian Jim Downs of Connecticut College, casts a shadow over one of the most celebrated narratives of American history, which sees the freeing of the slaves as a triumphant righting of the wrongs of a southern plantation system that kept millions of black Americans in chains.
The "new book" you refer to was published seven years ago, so your surprise and delight at shouting about it seems somewhat misplaced.

I haven't read the book, but the couple of reviews I found online point out that Downs' analysis is as much a condemnation of the attitude of Federal bureaucracy to the fate of the freedmen as it was a commentary on that fate per se. One cites the response to an outbreak of smallpox in the freedmen population of a Union Camp: authorities treated it as an inevitable consequence of the racial inferiority of the former slaves, and did nothing about it.

So, what Downs is, in effect, saying here is "White American politicians and bureaucrats have been racist since forever. The freed slaves never really stood a chance against a society that didn't care if they lived or died."

I'm not sure that that supports your point - if indeed you had a point in the first place. It seems to me to be condemning white America - on both sides, before and after the Civil War and during Reconstruction - for their racist attitude towards black people. If that's the point you wanted to bring out, then congratulations. If not, perhaps you should actually read something about the articles you cite.
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:33 pm
  #357  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Congratulations you won an argument with yourself.

Rushman: "2+2=4, fight me"
Me: " that is because, if you start with two, and add another two, the total is four"
Rushman: "You idiot, 2+2=4, ,Why won't you read this math book that says 2+2=4?"
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:39 pm
  #358  
 
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
The "new book" you refer to was published seven years ago, so your surprise and delight at shouting about it seems somewhat misplaced.

I haven't read the book, but the couple of reviews I found online point out that Downs' analysis is as much a condemnation of the attitude of Federal bureaucracy to the fate of the freedmen as it was a commentary on that fate per se. One cites the response to an outbreak of smallpox in the freedmen population of a Union Camp: authorities treated it as an inevitable consequence of the racial inferiority of the former slaves, and did nothing about it.

So, what Downs is, in effect, saying here is "White American politicians and bureaucrats have been racist since forever. The freed slaves never really stood a chance against a society that didn't care if they lived or died."

I'm not sure that that supports your point - if indeed you had a point in the first place. It seems to me to be condemning white America - on both sides, before and after the Civil War and during Reconstruction - for their racist attitude towards black people. If that's the point you wanted to bring out, then congratulations. If not, perhaps you should actually read something about the articles you cite.
Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Congratulations you won an argument with yourself.

Rushman: "2+2=4, fight me"
Me: " that is because, if you start with two, and add another two, the total is four"
Rushman: "You idiot, 2+2=4, ,Why won't you read this math book that says 2+2=4?"

Rushman seems to have expended a vast amount of energy in order to convey the idea that people suffered because of slavery.

Not really a new finding, but hey.
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:41 pm
  #359  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
The Benghazi Handicap was around March 1941. Op. Bertram was mid-1942.
Ah - I know nothing of Benghazi (well, not in the context of the siege of Tobruk, anyway. "But Hillary....."). I was replying to LiW's comment about her grandfather and his gramophone. Apologies for confusion!
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Old Aug 21st 2019, 9:52 pm
  #360  
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Default Re: I don't really know where to put this

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Rushman seems to have expended a vast amount of energy in order to convey the idea that people suffered because of slavery.

Not really a new finding, but hey.
I understand that it's difficult for trolls when they don't get the response they planned for, he wanted a rejection of his claim, not a bit of nuance and context, and he thought it would be best for him to stick to his script no matter what. He must have put a second class stamp on my part of the script, as it still hasn't arrived.
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