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George Floyd

George Floyd

Old Jun 6th 2020, 3:08 pm
  #331  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by UkWinds5353 View Post
That huge protest taking place in London speaks to the many many people in the UK that have experienced numerous incidents of racism. My friends of color in the UK tell me that racism in the UK is more institutionalized there and compares to where America was in the 1990s. Which explains why political power is not shared by all ethnic communities. But I personally do believe the fact the minority populations are still very small does have an effect on their influence in the UK. Minorities account for nearly 40% of the total population in America which is a number difficult to ignore.

Maybe that is what Diane Abbott meant by encouraging all people including minorities to unite and participate in the election political system. Maybe she is encouraging these smaller populations to work as a larger group in order to become a more influential force. If that is her intent then that is exactly what takes place in America. Groups inviting and exercising outreach in order to help those people in marginalized populations. I'm very impressed by this movement against racism and police brutality worldwide. Very heart warming to lift up people.
Is it that different? I thought it was something like 80% white in the UK vs 72% in the US.

Regardless that is where your canvassing comes in. Good luck this year.
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Old Jun 6th 2020, 3:40 pm
  #332  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
Is it that different? I thought it was something like 80% white in the UK vs 72% in the US.

Regardless that is where your canvassing comes in. Good luck this year.
Fastest growing minority group in the UK.

Mixed race 'fastest growing minority' - BBC Newsbeat

Is it the same in the US?

The only time I cannot discuss my 'other country' freely regarding both good and bad points is not the UK but the main part of this Forum and TIO!!! (Just three 'aggressive' posters can make a difference )

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Old Jun 6th 2020, 3:43 pm
  #333  
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Default Re: George Floyd

The canvassing is endless but oh so important.

America's population is roughly about 330 million people. Minorities make-up about 140+ million of that total number hence the nearly 40% population. Keep in mind this does not include the nearly 10-15 million people that are in the shadows because they are undocumented.
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Old Jun 6th 2020, 3:57 pm
  #334  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Fastest growing minority group in the UK.

Mixed race 'fastest growing minority' - BBC Newsbeat

Is it the same in the US?

The only time I cannot discuss my 'other country' freely regarding both good and bad points is not the UK but the main part of this Forum and TIO!!! (Just three 'aggressive' posters can make a difference )
Interesting news feed and its quite logical. I would imagine if a person is a minority in a country with fewer marriage and dating opportunities within a person's own ethnicity the next option would be considering going outside that demographic as a possible needed choice. That seems to be the case in New Zealand where there seem to be a serious shortage of males.
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Old Jun 6th 2020, 4:06 pm
  #335  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by UkWinds5353 View Post
Interesting news feed and its quite logical. I would imagine if a person is a minority in a country with fewer marriage and dating opportunities within a person's own ethnicity the next option would be considering going outside that demographic as a possible needed choice. That seems to be the case in New Zealand where there seem to be a serious shortage of males.
I don't think this is the reason in the UK. It is the normal mixing which happens there!!!!!!. (It does take two to make a marriage!)

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Old Jun 6th 2020, 4:07 pm
  #336  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
I agree with pretty much most of what you have written.

As for "steering clear of something abhorrent" - I did not vote for Trump and have never voted for conservatives - but I have had an absolute gutful of some posters continually playing the "racist" card, the "sexist" card, and the "any other -ist" card as a way of trying to insult people who do not vote like they do or do not think like they do. What sort of reaction is intended from other posters, when that card gets played? Is it supposed to be a constructive comment aimed at furthering discussion? Those posts should be immediately deleted. Any genuine racist, sexist or other -ist content should immediately be deleted and posters sanctioned. Others concerned about posts should flag the content to the moderators. Posters casually throwing around accusations of racism and sexism otherwise - the only purpose is to insult, incite and throw a thread off, and those comments should be deleted. This thread was going along nicely, with some minor hiccups that the mods dealt with, until the "racism" accusation was played on page 4. Would you say that Trump bloviates false, prejudicial allegations at people as a means to incite and insult? I fail to see any difference.

My social media experiment was going to highlight that - it did not work directly - but the point got made anyways, just a few hours later, when it happened regardless!!! (which I called out). We should not have a forum where false allegations of racism, sexism and you-name-it are so predictable that they appear like clockwork and can be predicted in advance. I think one of the first posters in this thread also predicted that this was going to get "ugly."

The more aggressive deletion of trolling posts, sniping and irrelevancies is very welcome. Now is the time to go further. Especially as the US Election is fast approaching.

As for "other perspectives" sure. I do not think anyone here is questioning that what happened was an unjustified murder, that those responsible should go to jail, and that those with the power to stop it and who did not, are at minimum accessories who should also go to jail.

I look down the track and fear where this is going - an all-or-nothing debate dominated by extremists on both sides, and if you introduce nuance you are a troll. I can already feel it happening. You are pro-police or you are anti-police. You tolerate the looting or you are a racist. You send in the army to clear the streets because you believe in law and order or you are an anarchist or a communist. Etc etc etc. As a result things are going to get untenable very fast and the public will react in an uncertain way when neither side of the political spectrum is providing a solution.

BEVS the world does not work in absolutes. What is the balance between over-policing and under-policing? If it is a political issue, why did it happen in one of the most liberal areas of the country? Based on the criteria I have criticised in my first paragraph - does that mean anyone who votes at all in Minnesota, is a racist? To say Trump has unhelpfully fanned the flames, I think is beyond question. To say he started the fire I think is unfair and ignores a very long history.

Nor is this an America-only issue. Here is some interesting reading for you:

https://www.police.govt.nz/resources...-of-police.pdf

The need for an 80-something page report says something about the situation in New Zealand. Interestingly the report posted the biggest differentiation in Maori perceptions of the police, was age. Older police had more experience and knew how to handle situations better. Younger police tended to have problems.

Have a nice day.
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Old Jun 6th 2020, 4:30 pm
  #337  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
I don't think this is the reason in the UK. It is the normal mixing which happens there!!!!!!. (It does take two to make a marriage!)
I agree it does take two. My post did sound a little too much like a one sided shotgun wedding taking place in circa 1940s West Virginia.
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Old Jun 6th 2020, 6:36 pm
  #338  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
I am not going to mention the other poster by name but it doesn't matter that he or she rarely enters TIO or that they normally talk about cake or whatever. It's old, its tiresome, and I am not the only one who has had a gutful of it.
I don't think that's any way to talk about cake.

Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
This happens because of the continued gaslighting and mud-slinging.
Are you sure you've got the meaning of "gaslighting" right?

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Old Jun 6th 2020, 6:39 pm
  #339  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Fastest growing minority group in the UK.

Mixed race 'fastest growing minority' - BBC Newsbeat

Is it the same in the US?

The only time I cannot discuss my 'other country' freely regarding both good and bad points is not the UK but the main part of this Forum and TIO!!! (Just three 'aggressive' posters can make a difference )
Your post reminded me of a paragraph in a David Olusoga book review a few years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...-black-history

For this book, he opened up that conversation again and found some catharsis. It is heartening for him that his youngest siblings, born much later, can barely believe what it was like to be black and British then. “At my lowest moment, I wanted to leave the country. But it is no longer 1984. There has been too much integration. I was on a beach a few years ago, in the south of England, and I saw this guy who had bulldog tattoos, England flag tattoos – the sort of person I’d be really frightened of as a child – and he was with this mixed-race child who was clearly his granddaughter. It was such an amazing sight.”

Next time I go to London I will have a look at the bronze casting at the base of Nelson's Column he mentions. I think most people are open to his type of thoughtful insight and consider their views and behaviour. "Learning Points" from "George the Poet" on Newsnight and divisive stuff from the likes of Afua Hirsch are less likely to be helpful.

Unfortunately the usual suspects seem to latch onto BLM protests just like they do with the 1%, G7, climate change etc...

https://www.dazeddigital.com/politic...ohnson-t-shirt
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Old Jun 6th 2020, 6:57 pm
  #340  
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Default Re: George Floyd

This is almost out of The Hills Have Eyes.
http://komonews.com/news/local/multi...rip-near-forks
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Old Jun 6th 2020, 7:17 pm
  #341  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
I agree with pretty much most of what you have written.

As for "steering clear of something abhorrent" - I did not vote for Trump and have never voted for conservatives - but I have had an absolute gutful of some posters continually playing the "racist" card, the "sexist" card, and the "any other -ist" card as a way of trying to insult people who do not vote like they do or do not think like they do. What sort of reaction is intended from other posters, when that card gets played? Is it supposed to be a constructive comment aimed at furthering discussion? Those posts should be immediately deleted. Any genuine racist, sexist or other -ist content should immediately be deleted and posters sanctioned. Others concerned about posts should flag the content to the moderators. Posters casually throwing around accusations of racism and sexism otherwise - the only purpose is to insult, incite and throw a thread off, and those comments should be deleted. This thread was going along nicely, with some minor hiccups that the mods dealt with, until the "racism" accusation was played on page 4. Would you say that Trump bloviates false, prejudicial allegations at people as a means to incite and insult? I fail to see any difference.

My social media experiment was going to highlight that - it did not work directly - but the point got made anyways, just a few hours later, when it happened regardless!!! (which I called out). We should not have a forum where false allegations of racism, sexism and you-name-it are so predictable that they appear like clockwork and can be predicted in advance. I think one of the first posters in this thread also predicted that this was going to get "ugly."

The more aggressive deletion of trolling posts, sniping and irrelevancies is very welcome. Now is the time to go further. Especially as the US Election is fast approaching.

As for "other perspectives" sure. I do not think anyone here is questioning that what happened was an unjustified murder, that those responsible should go to jail, and that those with the power to stop it and who did not, are at minimum accessories who should also go to jail.

I look down the track and fear where this is going - an all-or-nothing debate dominated by extremists on both sides, and if you introduce nuance you are a troll. I can already feel it happening. You are pro-police or you are anti-police. You tolerate the looting or you are a racist. You send in the army to clear the streets because you believe in law and order or you are an anarchist or a communist. Etc etc etc. As a result things are going to get untenable very fast and the public will react in an uncertain way when neither side of the political spectrum is providing a solution.

BEVS the world does not work in absolutes. What is the balance between over-policing and under-policing? If it is a political issue, why did it happen in one of the most liberal areas of the country? Based on the criteria I have criticised in my first paragraph - does that mean anyone who votes at all in Minnesota, is a racist? To say Trump has unhelpfully fanned the flames, I think is beyond question. To say he started the fire I think is unfair and ignores a very long history.

Nor is this an America-only issue. Here is some interesting reading for you:

https://www.police.govt.nz/resources...-of-police.pdf

The need for an 80-something page report says something about the situation in New Zealand. Interestingly the report posted the biggest differentiation in Maori perceptions of the police, was age. Older police had more experience and knew how to handle situations better. Younger police tended to have problems.

Have a nice day.
but I have had an absolute gutful of some posters continually playing the "racist" card, the "sexist" card, and the "any other -ist" card as a way of trying to insult people who do not vote like they do or do not think like they do

Would you care to point out where anyone has continually called someone a racist or sexist,
and do you think racism and sexism doesn't exist, and if it does it shouldn't be drawn attention to.
.

Last edited by johnwoo; Jun 6th 2020 at 7:30 pm.
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Old Jun 6th 2020, 8:00 pm
  #342  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Remember the Stamford experiment? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanfo...son_experiment
Ask yourselves, why did it evolve in the manner that it did?
Ask yourselves, what would have followed had it not been overseen as an experiment? No doubt Abu Ghraib remains an example of what might have happened.
So what has this to do with George Floyd?
George Floyd died because the police were allowed to act as they did. They were doing what, I would argue, all groups do when given free reign to act as they will.
From Catholic priests to the common foot soldier in Iraq, when left to their own devices people will bend or break rules to get away with what they think they can get away with, it's what we do.
The difference between the rest of us and the police is that society recognises this behaviour and organises against such rule breaking for it's own self defence and the police are enabled by society for this very purpose and it grants powers to the police that the rest of us don't have.
As a society we permit this because we understand that it needs to be done and we don't trust each other to behave well.
George Floyd fell foul of a police service that is out of control. It has become unregulated and a force that seeks to benefit itself to the detriment of the society it was created to protect. It's clear that the real culprits, those who should be held accountable will go free. The common foot soldier will, as usual, be the one tied to apost to be shot at when it was the complete failure of senior management and their political masters especially to ensure that events like the murder of George Floyd were never swept under, what has become, a very large and very bumpy carpet.
So, will George Floyd start a revolution in policing in America?
I'm afraid the answer is No. The behaviour of so many police forces is such that they recognise the hole that they've dug for themselves and will, like the 57 who resigned from the Buffolo Emergency Respose Team, organise to prevent change and as past evidence has demonstrated there simply isn't the deep down political will to do anything about it, there are just too many powerful interest groups that like things the way they are.
Oh sure there'll be huffing and puffing and hot air blowing but nothing of substance will change.
The foot soliers will still behave badly and on occasion they'll be held to account where indisputable evidence exists, but on those dark nights, on lonely roads where cameras are few and far between it'll still be dangerous to be black and increasingly just a normal Joe when faced with a cop with a gun.


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Old Jun 6th 2020, 8:01 pm
  #343  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Vote in November if you can. I recommend " Not Trump"
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Old Jun 6th 2020, 8:17 pm
  #344  
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Default Re: George Floyd

The Buffalo police two were applauded on release without bail by fellow cops.
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Old Jun 6th 2020, 8:39 pm
  #345  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by RICH View Post
Vote in November if you can. I recommend " Not Trump"
I'm certainly not absolving the politicians.... but there's another problem in the US that needs sorting
https://www.reuters.com/investigates...police-unions/
When does protecting your members FROM wrong, to protecting their members WHEN wrong..... ??
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