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George Floyd

George Floyd

Old Jun 4th 2020, 1:49 pm
  #181  
 
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
I'll pick up on this and try not to let this become a rant, because this whole business makes me very, very angry.

I'm actually with you on quite a lot of what you say, Cape. I'm with Hiro too, on some things, particularly his criticism of the militarization and lack of accountability of the US police, which in my view are the primary reasons for George Floyd's death rather than racism, which is not to say that racism wasn't a factor.

Looking at the dry statistics, one could say that incidents like this aren't actually all that common, given the size of the US. That black-on-white murders are more numerous, and black-on-black murders even more so. And so on. Lies, damned lies and statistics, as you pretty much say yourself.

The fact that every couple of months there's a George Floyd, or Martin Trayvon, or Tamir Rice, and the fact that the media runs with these stories - they are, after all, of great interest to the public - turns them into a constant issue, and invites whataboutery. What about all the terrible things done by black thugs that don't receive remotely as much media attention?

But consider this. It's not just that you don't read, every couple of months, of a black cop kneeling on a white man's head for eight minutes and literally squeezing the life out of him whilst bystanders film him doing so. Of two black cops screeching up in a cruiser in a serene white neighbourhood and immediately shooting a white, twelve-year-old "young man" (sic) playing with a toy gun. Of a black cop mistaking another apartment for her own and immediately shooting the "intruder". Of two black rednecks grabbing their guns and charging out of their house in such a hurry that they don't even have time to don their black cloaks and pointy hoods, piling into their pickup and chasing down a white jogger and shooting him. No. It's that even if you did, what you really don't hear - and this is the point - you never hear of black people doing this to white people and two hours later walking the streets as free people. Of not being held to account. Of them saying "self-defense, officer", or "he was resisting arrest, chief" - "oh, OK, on your way then".

Sure, Derek Chauvin is now being held to account. I think it was Lion in Winter (correct me if I'm wrong) who said that she was glad that that was happening at all. But it did initially appear that Chauvin only needed to say "resisting arrest", and that was it. Ahmaud Arbery's killers are also having to answer for their actions, but only because a video surfaced; without that, his death would have been little more than a brief mention in the local paper, and no action taken.

The message is, or at least has been, for decades, indeed centuries, that in America, human life is very, very cheap, provided the killer is privileged. Which usually means, even if it isn't limited to, being white.

This thinking, this sense of entitlement to kill people without being held to account, goes right to the top. Right up to the current incumbent of the White House. "When the looting starts, the shooting starts." Phew, where do I start... one, how is "shooting people" the appropriate default response to someone stealing a TV set? Two, Trump didn't coin the phrase. That was Walter E. Headley, the Miami police chief, in response to a crime outbreak - in 1967! What were you saying, Cape, about this not being the 1960s? And three, isn't it just as legitimate to say "When the shooting starts, the looting starts"? The shooting of black people? And did it ever stop? As for the rule of law, the family of Harry Dunn are still waiting. Trump has made it explicitly clear that when the wife of an American spook mows down a British motorcyclist, he has absolutely zero respect for the rule of law in Britain. It's inconceivable that she should be held to account for her mistake. But someone stealing a TV set? Shoot him!

I've said it often enough, you all know what I think of the rule of law. What I think of Chauvin is unprintable, but it's absolutely, crucially important that he receive a fair trial. At the very most, if he is jailed, he'll probably be out again in a couple of years. Tragic, but it's the best we can hope for. As a privileged white armchair social justice warrior living in a safe country, that's my take. It's not about race and we shouldn't make it so. A human being killed another human being and he should answer for it, and that process, and our response, should not only be appropriate: it should be the same whatever the skin colour of those involved.

But if I were black and living in Minnesota right now, I'd probably be rioting. I'd probably be thinking: since when did the rule of law ever apply to people like me?
Just to add - there is a difference between being killed or mistreated because of your skin colour, and being killed or mistreated while happening to have a skin colour. Black people kill black people too - not because they are black but because of our violent and inequitable society. Conflating killing with racist killing obscures the issue, or at best grossly oversimplifies it and reduces it to "what colour were you when you took this action". And yes, justice should be blind, but in the US the fact remains that it is not. It's not blind to colour but even more importantly it's not blind to wealth.

I truly don't understand why some people expend so much effort trying to claim that racism isn't a factor in the US. What an incredible waste of time. Of course it's a factor, and has been since the conquest and then onset of slavery. Neither racism nor its effects have gone away. Equally, it is not the only issue or even necessarily the dominant issue in terms of the causes of the rampant inequality of opportunity in the US. But trying to pretend that this is all just a matter of individual choice is to ignore the evidence.
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 1:54 pm
  #182  
 
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Yeah, I forgot about the last bit... Trump has previous form for doing that.



The family and public would definitely be outraged, and rightly so. And the former officers would have to move because plenty of people would rightly see them as getting of lightly, while others will feel the former officers ratted on their fellow officer.

I'm guessing they'll be tried separately but as linked trials.

I have no idea how they will find a jury for this one. There can't be anyone much who isn't aware of the case and doesn't have preconceived opinions about it. They are going to need a jury of three year olds who have been living under a rock.
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 2:01 pm
  #183  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by johnwoo View Post
An interesting comparison between George Floyd and Trump briefly standing outside a church holding a bible.

"The rest of the country knows George Floyd from several minutes of cell phone footage captured during his final hours. But in Houston’s Third Ward, they know Floyd for how he lived for decades—a mentor to a generation of young men and a “person of peace” ushering ministries into the area.

Before moving to Minneapolis for a job opportunity through a Christian work program, the 46-year-old spent almost his entire life in the historically black Third Ward, where he was called “Big Floyd” and regarded as an “OG,” a de-facto community leader and elder statesmen, his ministry partners say.

Floyd spoke of breaking the cycle of violence he saw among young people and used his influence to bring outside ministries to the area to do discipleship and outreach, particularly in the Cuney Homes housing project, locally known as “the Bricks.”

“George Floyd was a person of peace sent from the Lord that helped the gospel go forward in a place that I never lived in,” said Patrick PT Ngwolo, pastor of Resurrection Houston, which held services at Cuney.

“The platform for us to reach that neighborhood and the hundreds of people we reached through that time and up to now was built on the backs of people like Floyd,” he told Christianity Today.

Ngwolo and fellow leaders met Floyd in 2010. He was a towering 6-foot-6 guest who showed up at a benefit concert they put on for the Third Ward. From the start, Big Floyd made his priorities clear.

“He said, ‘I love what you’re doing. The neighborhood need it, the community need it, and if y’all about God’s business, then that’s my business,’” said Corey Paul Davis, a Christian hip-hop artist who attended Resurrection Houston. “He said, ‘Whatever y’all need, wherever y’all need to go, tell ’em Floyd said y’all good. I got y’all.’”

The church expanded its involvement in the area, holding Bible studies and helping out with groceries and rides to doctor’s appointments. Floyd didn’t just provide access and protection; he lent a helping hand as the church put on services, three-on-three basketball tournaments, barbecues, and community baptisms".

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...=pocket-newtab
I think we have to be very careful about lionising or indeed demonising the person and we can clearly see the media are very selective over how they want to portray the man on both "sides" of the debate. At the end of the day he didn't deserve to be killed regardless of what he did or didn't do in Texas.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...son-Texas.html

Floyd had been sentenced to five years in prison in 2009 for aggravated assault stemming from a robbery where Floyd entered a woman’s home, pointed a gun at her stomach and searched the home for drugs and money, according to court records.

Floyd had at least five stints in jail. In one of the charging documents, officials noted Floyd had two convictions in the 1990s for theft and delivery of a controlled substance, but it is not clear if Floyd served any time for either of those offenses.

Floyd pleaded guilty to the first degree felony and was sentenced in April 2009 to five years in prison.

Prior to that, Floyd was sentenced to 10 months in state jail for possession of cocaine. He had been charged in December 2005 for having less than one gram of the controlled substance.

However, a few months later the charge was updated to possession with intent to deliver a controlled substance, amending the amount Floyd allegedly had to more than four grams of cocaine.

But according to court records, Floyd was able to have the charge reverted back to possession of cocaine less than a gram.

Floyd had two other cocaine offenses, receiving an eight month-sentence stemming from an October 2002 arrest and was sentenced to 10 months from a 2004 arrest.

Floyd was arrested in April 2002 for criminal trespassing and was sentenced to 30 days in jail.

He did another stint for theft with a firearm in August 1998. He served 10 months at Harris County jail.
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 2:20 pm
  #184  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Just to add - there is a difference between being killed or mistreated because of your skin colour, and being killed or mistreated while happening to have a skin colour. Black people kill black people too - not because they are black but because of our violent and inequitable society. Conflating killing with racist killing obscures the issue, or at best grossly oversimplifies it and reduces it to "what colour were you when you took this action". And yes, justice should be blind, but in the US the fact remains that it is not. It's not blind to colour but even more importantly it's not blind to wealth.

I truly don't understand why some people expend so much effort trying to claim that racism isn't a factor in the US. What an incredible waste of time. Of course it's a factor, and has been since the conquest and then onset of slavery. Neither racism nor its effects have gone away. Equally, it is not the only issue or even necessarily the dominant issue in terms of the causes of the rampant inequality of opportunity in the US. But trying to pretend that this is all just a matter of individual choice is to ignore the evidence.
This. Absolutely.

It irritates me (to put it mildly) when people trot out the "black people kill white people, you know" stuff. What I have never seen is a statistic highlighting the number of white civilians killed by black police officers while going about their normal daily business (whatever that business may be, legitimate or otherwise). If a meaningful comparison is to be drawn, that would be it. But it'd still be pretty meaningless, IMO.

I think you're right, that other privileges besides being not-black (wealth, upbringing, education, etc) play a part, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say wealth is a more important factor than colour (well, sure, I suppose OJ Simpson might support you on that one, however...)
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 2:22 pm
  #185  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by AKing View Post
The issue is not whether a black man was killed, it should be 'why has police brutality in general in the US got out of hand'?

There is no need for BLM or any equal opportunities nonsense. Minorities are actually over-represented relative to the overall population in the US/UK..
Really? Promoting programs that lead to equality of opportunity is a nonsense? Please explain...

Interesting thread to dive in on as a first post. Hello, welcome to BE. Tell us a little about yourself. Are you a real person?
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 2:24 pm
  #186  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
Really? Promoting programs that lead to equality of opportunity is a nonsense? Please explain...

Interesting thread to dive in on as a first post. Hello, welcome to BE. Tell us a little about yourself. Are you a real person?
That was his second post, the first was deleted as it was even worse, seems he was only here to troll. He's left the building now.
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 2:37 pm
  #187  
 
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
Really? Promoting programs that lead to equality of opportunity is a nonsense? Please explain...

Interesting thread to dive in on as a first post. Hello, welcome to BE. Tell us a little about yourself. Are you a real person?
Originally Posted by christmasoompa View Post
That was his second post, the first was deleted as it was even worse, seems he was only here to troll. He's left the building now.
We've had a couple of those lately.

Maybe a current poster with another identity?
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 2:50 pm
  #188  
 
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse View Post

I said something similar about half an hour ago but my post got mislaid. Yes, it seems to be spammer's day out, must be double commission day or something.
Your post got mislaid? Where did you see it last?

It's a Friday. If they make x number of posts by the end of the week they can hit their number.

(And I fixed your quote )
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 2:53 pm
  #189  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
We've had a couple of those lately.
I said the same earlier tonight but the post seems to have been mislaid. Probably mistaken for spam
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 3:12 pm
  #190  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
We've had a couple of those lately.

Maybe a current poster with another identity?
Just a troll who's been here a few times before (and just banned yet again). His previous incarnation came out with gems like "mass immigration, single motherhood....All of these afflictions have been imposed on this country".

Clearly just some sad old Daily Mail reader with nothing better to do. Sigh.
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 3:23 pm
  #191  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I have no idea how they will find a jury for this one. There can't be anyone much who isn't aware of the case and doesn't have preconceived opinions about it. They are going to need a jury of three year olds who have been living under a rock.
Michigan Trump supporters?......
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 3:24 pm
  #192  
 
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by christmasoompa View Post
Just a troll who's been here a few times before (and just banned yet again). His previous incarnation came out with gems like "mass immigration, single motherhood....All of these afflictions have been imposed on this country".

Clearly just some sad old Daily Mail reader with nothing better to do. Sigh.
I just googled "sad old Daily Mail reader" and most of the top results were the royal family.
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 3:25 pm
  #193  
 
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Michigan Trump supporters?......

Can they bring their guns to court? If so, we might be on to something.
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 3:36 pm
  #194  
 
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
This. Absolutely.

It irritates me (to put it mildly) when people trot out the "black people kill white people, you know" stuff. What I have never seen is a statistic highlighting the number of white civilians killed by black police officers while going about their normal daily business (whatever that business may be, legitimate or otherwise). If a meaningful comparison is to be drawn, that would be it. But it'd still be pretty meaningless, IMO.

I think you're right, that other privileges besides being not-black (wealth, upbringing, education, etc) play a part, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say wealth is a more important factor than colour (well, sure, I suppose OJ Simpson might support you on that one, however...)

The difficulty in the US is that wealth and skin colour intersect and interact in a particular way, for historical and structural reasons. For example, the segregation in terms of where people live, by skin colour, is still shockingly obvious. There is code for it - among white people. "Is that a safe area?" can mean "is it a 'black area' " and "is there a high crime rate" and "do a lot of poor people live there" so it all gets smushed together. The same goes for inequality in the justice system, where poor black people are the least well-defended, the most convicted, the most heavily sentenced, and the most imprisoned (per capita) segment of the population by a long way. Is that a problem of race or economics? And how far did racism go towards creating the economics problem?

And then there's this.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...t-black-people
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Old Jun 4th 2020, 4:12 pm
  #195  
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Default Re: George Floyd

Originally Posted by Nutek View Post
.
Trump will let him out.
This will not happen, it is no benefit to Trump. The cop is toxic. No one of note is defending the cop. I am only seeing "blue lives matter" posts in response to the demonstrations, not to the original incident.
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