George Floyd
Jun 3rd 2020, 6:41 pm
#151
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,880
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
Of course there is an argument. You just don't want to hear it, or see it, or understand it. For you, it is false by definition before it even starts due to the people who are putting it forward and not due to the content of the argument itself.
That is unfortunate, but not an insuperable obstacle for the people to whom this all matters.
That is unfortunate, but not an insuperable obstacle for the people to whom this all matters.
There was no attempt at saying "well I think you're wrong here Cape because of X Y ....." etc - there was no content.
You put forward an argument earlier, I countered with my opinion, subsequently I haven't heard anyone explaining which bits were wrong (or indeed, right), but I figured the "you're a racist" card would be coughed up at some point.
Jun 3rd 2020, 6:55 pm
#152
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,880
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by kimilseung
The first chapter of the book addresses this issue, it is why I kept reading, it is erudite were I have not been on here when discussing the weaponizing of the word "racist" by people such as yourself, in attempting too avoid the issue. Attempts at turning "racist" in to a nuclear option, should be resisted. In a racist society, its a low key accusation, and one should expect to be so, especially those such as yourself who have benefited from the current social structures, why wouldn't you be?
I assume that, because most of the regular BE posters are people who have done OK in life, perhaps own a house, traveled, live/lived abroad, got educated etc - that basically they all have "benefited from the structures of a racist society" and therefore "why wouldn't they" also be racist and they should also see any accusation at them as low-key?
I think calling someone a pedo, or a sexist or a racist is a pretty high-level accusation, I suspect no one here wants to think of themselves as such, so I don't think "people such as myself" are "weaponizing" it, but merely finding it a description we find abhorrent and one which seems to be thrown around with gay abandon by some people without any substance behind it.
Jun 3rd 2020, 7:48 pm
#153
Fair and balanced
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 15,631
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by Cape Blue
Honestly I'm really not sure what you're saying here - you seem (seem - It's not clear to me) to be saying that because society is racist (I don't agree), then calling someone racist is not a slur and that anyone who has done OK with their lives is, by default, a racist because they have "benefited" from the social structures of a racist society - I assume that black people, Asians, etc etc who have "benefited" are similarly ("why wouldn't they") racist by default in this scenario you are painting?
I assume that, because most of the regular BE posters are people who have done OK in life, perhaps own a house, traveled, live/lived abroad, got educated etc - that basically they all have "benefited from the structures of a racist society" and therefore "why wouldn't they" also be racist and they should also see any accusation at them as low-key?
I think calling someone a pedo, or a sexist or a racist is a pretty high-level accusation, I suspect no one here wants to think of themselves as such, so I don't think "people such as myself" are "weaponizing" it, but merely finding it a description we find abhorrent and one which seems to be thrown around with gay abandon by some people without any substance behind it.
I assume that, because most of the regular BE posters are people who have done OK in life, perhaps own a house, traveled, live/lived abroad, got educated etc - that basically they all have "benefited from the structures of a racist society" and therefore "why wouldn't they" also be racist and they should also see any accusation at them as low-key?
I think calling someone a pedo, or a sexist or a racist is a pretty high-level accusation, I suspect no one here wants to think of themselves as such, so I don't think "people such as myself" are "weaponizing" it, but merely finding it a description we find abhorrent and one which seems to be thrown around with gay abandon by some people without any substance behind it.
People who benefit from systems are likely to support those systems, this seems straight forward enough and supported by history. You have talked about the culture of groups being responsible for that groups outcomes. It doesnt matter what group you may be in if you are supporting policies and structures that result in racist outcomes, you are not being anti-racist (perhaps this is a better wording that I take from Kendr's book, it was very powerful to me, and coalesced many disparate thought I have had) There are two points to this that you do not address.
1. How and why has a culture developed the way that it has.
2. The impact of those not operating within a culture but linked to that culture by third party observers.
3. and a third I will add, the impact of a parent culture that does not meet the wants and requirements of sub-culture within it, and the affects of judgmental attitudes on that sub culture by the prevalent hegemony. This point probably deserves a little further explanation. However we may feel that our culture is the superior culture (and most people do, otherwise we would migrate culture in some way) we must accept that it is a subjective matter, based upon access to resources and cost benefit analysis on our desired outcomes. We must also acknowledge that the system that is operated within, no matter how "natural" it may seem, is still a construct and a system created and developed over time, it is a culture itself. it has evolved to meet certain subjective needs and outcomes. The system evolves to meet the needs of the hegemony. The system is not a natural state of affairs, no matter how longevity and its ability to meet "our" needs suggest its inevitability.
Something else that I think you miss is the importance of perception, and how that informs us of other peoples life experiences,
Historic trauma affects cultures over generations, it is what culture is. it is the weight of ancestors and peers experiences, culture can not change over night or over one or two generations. This is true of both the oppressor and the oppressed, and I think we see that in clearly in America.
You yourself used phrase such as "hood rats" (I think it was you) and outlined all the reasons why a group is failing, these perceptions are reflected upon other not meeting the criteria. Studies in education show that both outcomes and discipline work out unfavorable for people of color in the USA, even when all other variables are equal.
You seem to think that you deserve what you have achieved, but any individuals achievement is a combination of accident of birth and accident of environment.We achieve what our opportunities allow us to achieve, combined with what society has chosen to reward.
I do need to study.
Jun 3rd 2020, 8:16 pm
#154
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: City of Broad Shoulders
Posts: 59,179
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by kimilseung
I understand that this is how you feel, and I dont think that I am going to change your mind, so I dont know of a productive reason to to counter or discuss it, but I do find myself currently trying to avoid both work and study, despite deadlines approaching.
People who benefit from systems are likely to support those systems, this seems straight forward enough and supported by history. You have talked about the culture of groups being responsible for that groups outcomes. It doesnt matter what group you may be in if you are supporting policies and structures that result in racist outcomes, you are not being anti-racist (perhaps this is a better wording that I take from Kendr's book, it was very powerful to me, and coalesced many disparate thought I have had) There are two points to this that you do not address.
1. How and why has a culture developed the way that it has.
2. The impact of those not operating within a culture but linked to that culture by third party observers.
3. and a third I will add, the impact of a parent culture that does not meet the wants and requirements of sub-culture within it, and the affects of judgmental attitudes on that sub culture by the prevalent hegemony. This point probably deserves a little further explanation. However we may feel that our culture is the superior culture (and most people do, otherwise we would migrate culture in some way) we must accept that it is a subjective matter, based upon access to resources and cost benefit analysis on our desired outcomes. We must also acknowledge that the system that is operated within, no matter how "natural" it may seem, is still a construct and a system created and developed over time, it is a culture itself. it has evolved to meet certain subjective needs and outcomes. The system evolves to meet the needs of the hegemony. The system is not a natural state of affairs, no matter how longevity and its ability to meet "our" needs suggest its inevitability.
Something else that I think you miss is the importance of perception, and how that informs us of other peoples life experiences,
Historic trauma affects cultures over generations, it is what culture is. it is the weight of ancestors and peers experiences, culture can not change over night or over one or two generations. This is true of both the oppressor and the oppressed, and I think we see that in clearly in America.
You yourself used phrase such as "hood rats" (I think it was you) and outlined all the reasons why a group is failing, these perceptions are reflected upon other not meeting the criteria. Studies in education show that both outcomes and discipline work out unfavorable for people of color in the USA, even when all other variables are equal.
You seem to think that you deserve what you have achieved, but any individuals achievement is a combination of accident of birth and accident of environment.We achieve what our opportunities allow us to achieve, combined with what society has chosen to reward.
I do need to study.
People who benefit from systems are likely to support those systems, this seems straight forward enough and supported by history. You have talked about the culture of groups being responsible for that groups outcomes. It doesnt matter what group you may be in if you are supporting policies and structures that result in racist outcomes, you are not being anti-racist (perhaps this is a better wording that I take from Kendr's book, it was very powerful to me, and coalesced many disparate thought I have had) There are two points to this that you do not address.
1. How and why has a culture developed the way that it has.
2. The impact of those not operating within a culture but linked to that culture by third party observers.
3. and a third I will add, the impact of a parent culture that does not meet the wants and requirements of sub-culture within it, and the affects of judgmental attitudes on that sub culture by the prevalent hegemony. This point probably deserves a little further explanation. However we may feel that our culture is the superior culture (and most people do, otherwise we would migrate culture in some way) we must accept that it is a subjective matter, based upon access to resources and cost benefit analysis on our desired outcomes. We must also acknowledge that the system that is operated within, no matter how "natural" it may seem, is still a construct and a system created and developed over time, it is a culture itself. it has evolved to meet certain subjective needs and outcomes. The system evolves to meet the needs of the hegemony. The system is not a natural state of affairs, no matter how longevity and its ability to meet "our" needs suggest its inevitability.
Something else that I think you miss is the importance of perception, and how that informs us of other peoples life experiences,
Historic trauma affects cultures over generations, it is what culture is. it is the weight of ancestors and peers experiences, culture can not change over night or over one or two generations. This is true of both the oppressor and the oppressed, and I think we see that in clearly in America.
You yourself used phrase such as "hood rats" (I think it was you) and outlined all the reasons why a group is failing, these perceptions are reflected upon other not meeting the criteria. Studies in education show that both outcomes and discipline work out unfavorable for people of color in the USA, even when all other variables are equal.
You seem to think that you deserve what you have achieved, but any individuals achievement is a combination of accident of birth and accident of environment.We achieve what our opportunities allow us to achieve, combined with what society has chosen to reward.
I do need to study.
Thank you, that's much better and more helpful than my rather irritated response.
Jun 3rd 2020, 9:26 pm
#155
So long...
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 22,577
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
Yes, there are. I keep my reminding myself of that when the shit is flying.
This clip also supports the other observation I reported that more police energy is being spent on breaking up peaceful protests (and possibly beating the shit out of them) than on catching and stopping actual looters.
This clip also supports the other observation I reported that more police energy is being spent on breaking up peaceful protests (and possibly beating the shit out of them) than on catching and stopping actual looters.
Originally Posted by spouse of scouse
But he wasn't in the bunker for long. And it was only to test his eyesight for an inspection.
Mr Trump told Fox News radio he went down during the day for a "tiny period of time" for an "inspection".
"I was there for a tiny, little short period of time. And it was much for an inspection... maybe sometime you're going to need it."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52911267
Mr Trump told Fox News radio he went down during the day for a "tiny period of time" for an "inspection".
"I was there for a tiny, little short period of time. And it was much for an inspection... maybe sometime you're going to need it."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52911267
Jun 3rd 2020, 9:37 pm
#156
BE Forum Addict
Joined: May 2016
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,134
Re: George Floyd
An interesting comparison between George Floyd and Trump briefly standing outside a church holding a bible.
"The rest of the country knows George Floyd from several minutes of cell phone footage captured during his final hours. But in Houston’s Third Ward, they know Floyd for how he lived for decades—a mentor to a generation of young men and a “person of peace” ushering ministries into the area.
Before moving to Minneapolis for a job opportunity through a Christian work program, the 46-year-old spent almost his entire life in the historically black Third Ward, where he was called “Big Floyd” and regarded as an “OG,” a de-facto community leader and elder statesmen, his ministry partners say.
Floyd
of breaking the cycle of violence he saw among young people and used his influence to bring outside ministries to the area to do discipleship and outreach, particularly in the Cuney Homes housing project, locally known as “the Bricks.”
“George Floyd was a person of peace sent from the Lord that helped the gospel go forward in a place that I never lived in,” said Patrick PT Ngwolo, pastor of Resurrection Houston, which held services at Cuney.
“The platform for us to reach that neighborhood and the hundreds of people we reached through that time and up to now was built on the backs of people like Floyd,” he told Christianity Today.
Ngwolo and fellow leaders met Floyd in 2010. He was a towering 6-foot-6 guest who showed up at a benefit concert they put on for the Third Ward. From the start, Big Floyd made his priorities clear.
“He said, ‘I love what you’re doing. The neighborhood need it, the community need it, and if y’all about God’s business, then that’s my business,’” said Corey Paul Davis, a Christian hip-hop artist who attended Resurrection Houston. “He said, ‘Whatever y’all need, wherever y’all need to go, tell ’em Floyd said y’all good. I got y’all.’”
The church expanded its involvement in the area, holding Bible studies and helping out with groceries and rides to doctor’s appointments. Floyd didn’t just provide access and protection; he lent a helping hand as the church put on services, three-on-three basketball tournaments, barbecues, and community baptisms".
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...=pocket-newtab
"The rest of the country knows George Floyd from several minutes of cell phone footage captured during his final hours. But in Houston’s Third Ward, they know Floyd for how he lived for decades—a mentor to a generation of young men and a “person of peace” ushering ministries into the area.
Before moving to Minneapolis for a job opportunity through a Christian work program, the 46-year-old spent almost his entire life in the historically black Third Ward, where he was called “Big Floyd” and regarded as an “OG,” a de-facto community leader and elder statesmen, his ministry partners say.
Floyd
“George Floyd was a person of peace sent from the Lord that helped the gospel go forward in a place that I never lived in,” said Patrick PT Ngwolo, pastor of Resurrection Houston, which held services at Cuney.
“The platform for us to reach that neighborhood and the hundreds of people we reached through that time and up to now was built on the backs of people like Floyd,” he told Christianity Today.
Ngwolo and fellow leaders met Floyd in 2010. He was a towering 6-foot-6 guest who showed up at a benefit concert they put on for the Third Ward. From the start, Big Floyd made his priorities clear.
“He said, ‘I love what you’re doing. The neighborhood need it, the community need it, and if y’all about God’s business, then that’s my business,’” said Corey Paul Davis, a Christian hip-hop artist who attended Resurrection Houston. “He said, ‘Whatever y’all need, wherever y’all need to go, tell ’em Floyd said y’all good. I got y’all.’”
The church expanded its involvement in the area, holding Bible studies and helping out with groceries and rides to doctor’s appointments. Floyd didn’t just provide access and protection; he lent a helping hand as the church put on services, three-on-three basketball tournaments, barbecues, and community baptisms".
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...=pocket-newtab
Jun 3rd 2020, 10:30 pm
#157
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 34,047
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee
I think the latter is because the businesses will claim off their insurance for any losses, so the businesses don't lose out, neither do the insurance comanies in the long run. It's easier to beat people than to log paperwork for stolen property, I presume.
Jun 3rd 2020, 11:02 pm
#158
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere between Vancouver & St Johns
Posts: 18,331
Re: George Floyd
Charges now upgraded to 2nd degree murder and all 4 officers have now been charged. No news on if the other 3 are in custody. Those other 3 charged with aiding and abetting 2nd degree murder.
Jun 3rd 2020, 11:03 pm
#159
Concierge
Joined: Jan 2013
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 17,071
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by johnwoo
An interesting comparison between George Floyd and Trump briefly standing outside a church holding a bible.
"The rest of the country knows George Floyd from several minutes of cell phone footage captured during his final hours. But in Houston’s Third Ward, they know Floyd for how he lived for decades—a mentor to a generation of young men and a “person of peace” ushering ministries into the area.
Before moving to Minneapolis for a job opportunity through a Christian work program, the 46-year-old spent almost his entire life in the historically black Third Ward, where he was called “Big Floyd” and regarded as an “OG,” a de-facto community leader and elder statesmen, his ministry partners say.
Floyd spoke of breaking the cycle of violence he saw among young people and used his influence to bring outside ministries to the area to do discipleship and outreach, particularly in the Cuney Homes housing project, locally known as “the Bricks.”
“George Floyd was a person of peace sent from the Lord that helped the gospel go forward in a place that I never lived in,” said Patrick PT Ngwolo, pastor of Resurrection Houston, which held services at Cuney.
“The platform for us to reach that neighborhood and the hundreds of people we reached through that time and up to now was built on the backs of people like Floyd,” he told Christianity Today.
Ngwolo and fellow leaders met Floyd in 2010. He was a towering 6-foot-6 guest who showed up at a benefit concert they put on for the Third Ward. From the start, Big Floyd made his priorities clear.
“He said, ‘I love what you’re doing. The neighborhood need it, the community need it, and if y’all about God’s business, then that’s my business,’” said Corey Paul Davis, a Christian hip-hop artist who attended Resurrection Houston. “He said, ‘Whatever y’all need, wherever y’all need to go, tell ’em Floyd said y’all good. I got y’all.’”
The church expanded its involvement in the area, holding Bible studies and helping out with groceries and rides to doctor’s appointments. Floyd didn’t just provide access and protection; he lent a helping hand as the church put on services, three-on-three basketball tournaments, barbecues, and community baptisms".
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...=pocket-newtab
"The rest of the country knows George Floyd from several minutes of cell phone footage captured during his final hours. But in Houston’s Third Ward, they know Floyd for how he lived for decades—a mentor to a generation of young men and a “person of peace” ushering ministries into the area.
Before moving to Minneapolis for a job opportunity through a Christian work program, the 46-year-old spent almost his entire life in the historically black Third Ward, where he was called “Big Floyd” and regarded as an “OG,” a de-facto community leader and elder statesmen, his ministry partners say.
Floyd spoke of breaking the cycle of violence he saw among young people and used his influence to bring outside ministries to the area to do discipleship and outreach, particularly in the Cuney Homes housing project, locally known as “the Bricks.”
“George Floyd was a person of peace sent from the Lord that helped the gospel go forward in a place that I never lived in,” said Patrick PT Ngwolo, pastor of Resurrection Houston, which held services at Cuney.
“The platform for us to reach that neighborhood and the hundreds of people we reached through that time and up to now was built on the backs of people like Floyd,” he told Christianity Today.
Ngwolo and fellow leaders met Floyd in 2010. He was a towering 6-foot-6 guest who showed up at a benefit concert they put on for the Third Ward. From the start, Big Floyd made his priorities clear.
“He said, ‘I love what you’re doing. The neighborhood need it, the community need it, and if y’all about God’s business, then that’s my business,’” said Corey Paul Davis, a Christian hip-hop artist who attended Resurrection Houston. “He said, ‘Whatever y’all need, wherever y’all need to go, tell ’em Floyd said y’all good. I got y’all.’”
The church expanded its involvement in the area, holding Bible studies and helping out with groceries and rides to doctor’s appointments. Floyd didn’t just provide access and protection; he lent a helping hand as the church put on services, three-on-three basketball tournaments, barbecues, and community baptisms".
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...=pocket-newtab
A huge loss to Mr Floyd's community.
Jun 3rd 2020, 11:17 pm
#160
Fair and balanced
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 15,631
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by spouse of scouse
A huge loss to Mr Floyd's community.
Jun 4th 2020, 12:03 am
#161
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: City of Broad Shoulders
Posts: 59,179
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by kimilseung
Always up for a chance to discredit Christian organizations, I gave it a quick go with Resurrection Houston, and failed, on the matter of attitude to gay people, I just found support.
Jun 4th 2020, 12:24 am
#162
Concierge
Joined: Jan 2013
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 17,071
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by kimilseung
Always up for a chance to discredit Christian organizations, I gave it a quick go with Resurrection Houston, and failed, on the matter of attitude to gay people, I just found support.
I'm a non-religious person married to a practicing Catholic. I don't agree with much of the Catholic church's doctrine (and he doesn't agree with some of it), but that doesn't stop me loving him and vice versa.
Jun 4th 2020, 12:38 am
#163
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: City of Broad Shoulders
Posts: 59,179
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by spouse of scouse
I don't subscribe to the doctrine of Mr Floyd's religion but that has nothing to do with anything. I do wholeheartedly support someone working within whatever group they identify with to mentor young people, in Mr Floyd's case particularly to attempt to steer young people away from gun violence.
I'm a non-religious person married to a practicing Catholic. I don't agree with much of the Catholic church's doctrine (and he doesn't agree with some of it), but that doesn't stop me loving him and vice versa.
I'm a non-religious person married to a practicing Catholic. I don't agree with much of the Catholic church's doctrine (and he doesn't agree with some of it), but that doesn't stop me loving him and vice versa.
All sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I'm as atheist as they come, but have spent a good amount of time with Catholic priests in Guatemala who literally risked their lives to help others - persecuted indigenous people, for the most part.
Jun 4th 2020, 1:15 am
#164
Concierge
Joined: Jan 2013
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 17,071
Re: George Floyd
Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
Charges now upgraded to 2nd degree murder and all 4 officers have now been charged. No news on if the other 3 are in custody. Those other 3 charged with aiding and abetting 2nd degree murder.
Lane, Kueng and Thao were taken into custody Wednesday and are being held on $1 million bail, county jail records show.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/03/u...ges/index.html
Jun 4th 2020, 1:24 am
#165
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere between Vancouver & St Johns
Posts: 18,331
Re: George Floyd
Be nice if the article mentioned if bail was conditional or unconditional as that matters.
This next bit is actually taken from a Lawyers website
We have had success in every type of criminal case, including homicide cases where we once convinced the court to reduce the bail from $1,000,000 to $100,000, thereby saving our client $90,000 and allowing her to get out of custody. Call today for a free consultation – (612) 436-3051!
https://ryangarry.com/how-does-bail-work/
This next bit is actually taken from a Lawyers website
We have had success in every type of criminal case, including homicide cases where we once convinced the court to reduce the bail from $1,000,000 to $100,000, thereby saving our client $90,000 and allowing her to get out of custody. Call today for a free consultation – (612) 436-3051!
https://ryangarry.com/how-does-bail-work/
