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The future populist-run EU

The future populist-run EU

Old Nov 21st 2018, 8:03 pm
  #46  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by iano View Post
OK, well we can't second guess elections in May, but don't forget that while EU member states continue to determine EU treaties, the EU itself can't really be described as a federation, creeping or otherwise.

Regarding your repeated refs to "EU Army"...the Joint European defence initiative, signed up to by the UK, is nothing to do with the EU as we'll continue to be a member post Brexit.
Yes, further treaties are needed in their march towards further federalism but we know that is it's goal - as repeatedly stated by the EU leadership.

Yes, it seems Marcron and Merkels EU Army aspirations have recently been toned down. But it remains the EUs objective, they've just said it might take decades. I reckon they'd spin one up tomorrow if they could.
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Old Nov 21st 2018, 9:28 pm
  #47  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

As the US becomes increasingly isolationist, the need for a European defence initiative only increases. Besides, European security really isn't their problem.

I'm not sure why anyone would disfavour a European designed and funded defence force. It not only makes perfect sense, but it's a basic necessity.

??
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Old Nov 21st 2018, 9:39 pm
  #48  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by iano View Post
OK, well we can't second guess elections in May, but don't forget that while EU member states continue to determine EU treaties, the EU itself can't really be described as a federation, creeping or otherwise.

Regarding your repeated refs to "EU Army"...the Joint European defence initiative, signed up to by the UK, is nothing to do with the EU as we'll continue to be a member post Brexit.
Originally Posted by paulry View Post
Yes, further treaties are needed in their march towards further federalism but we know that is it's goal - as repeatedly stated by the EU leadership.

Yes, it seems Marcron and Merkels EU Army aspirations have recently been toned down. But it remains the EUs objective, they've just said it might take decades. I reckon they'd spin one up tomorrow if they could.
It turns out the UK has signed up to a lot more than just some fluffy-sounding joint defence initiative that has nothing to do with the EU.

New revelations about how our defence forces have been systematically sold down the river to the EU since our decision to leave:


Last edited by paulry; Nov 21st 2018 at 10:36 pm. Reason: clarified a sentence
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Old Nov 21st 2018, 9:47 pm
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

You're leaving. Tell the EU to bugger off.

I have a feeling they might experience both sadness and happiness about that.
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Old Nov 21st 2018, 10:11 pm
  #50  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

EU of France and Germany

EU of the rest?
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Old Nov 21st 2018, 10:13 pm
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by iano View Post
OK, well we can't second guess elections in May, but don't forget that while EU member states continue to determine EU treaties, the EU itself can't really be described as a federation, creeping or otherwise.

Regarding your repeated refs to "EU Army"...the Joint European defence initiative, signed up to by the UK, is nothing to do with the EU as we'll continue to be a member post Brexit.
Do you have a source for this?
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Old Nov 21st 2018, 10:31 pm
  #52  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
EU of France and Germany

EU of the rest?
That's also a very good reason why people are rejecting the EU. It's because it's not an EU of equals, its a Europe dominated by Germany and/or France. Now how many times have we seen that before and how well did they turn out?

And all the more hair raising when they talk about militarising their nice European dominance project.
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Old Nov 22nd 2018, 7:51 am
  #53  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
While yes there is room for a trading only block I personally think it is behind the times by as much as 50 years. We really don't need it, we just need to trade with each other freely on mutually fair terms. No membership fees and additional out of touch bureaucrats uming and ahing over rules are necessary. I predict that is exactly what the populists who take over the EU will realise.
OK then - we'll have to agree to differ on the matter of how essential rules and regulations and their enforcement are to fair trading and to a degree of harmonization or mutual recognition on numerous fronts within an economic zone of this depth. As far as the trading-only block was concerned I was more asking why the EU should be reduced to that when other countries could simply set up their own - there are plenty of other countries in the world with which to do it, so we're told.

Going back to something else I mentioned in another post, though, there are various political stances mixed in under the umbrella term "populist". Some of them are actually very strongly in favour of an EU which goes beyond a simple free trade area. Even those on which I assume you to be concentrating, ie the right wing anti-immigrant version, aren't generally demanding an end to FoM but rather complaining about the recent wave of asylum seekers (I'm just making the distinction here, not wishing to get into any sort of discussion about the rights and wrongs of the latter. I have previously asked several times for examples of countries other than the UK which strongly object to FoM and been met with nothing better than some rather vague and unlikely suggestions). Some of their main themes might even coincide to the point where together they could have progressive rather than destructive influence.
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Old Nov 22nd 2018, 8:22 am
  #54  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
While yes there is room for a trading only block I personally think it is behind the times by as much as 50 years. We really don't need it, we just need to trade with each other freely on mutually fair terms. No membership fees and additional out of touch bureaucrats uming and ahing over rules are necessary.
And a race to the bottom in health and welfare standards. Like in the TV documentary I saw a few days ago showing the conditions in Chinese factories making training shoes for the major western brands and the western markets. Young people breathing in carcinogenic fumes from the adhesives all day.

But hey, no out of touch bureaucrats uming and ahing over rules.
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Old Nov 22nd 2018, 10:57 am
  #55  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
The 29th May 2019 is the date of the EU elections, and it's widely thought that those elected will be majority populist like never before. Could this be the end of the EU or a reform of it back to what most voters originally understood it to be: A friendly community of sovereign nations, sharing a common love of freedom and self-determination? Will it signal an end to creeping federalism? Could it be that the renewed drive to form an EU army and all the other full-on apparatus of state represents the dying and desperate last gasps of that decaying federalist dream? Could this be the shot in the arm that the crumbling block needs? And what could it mean to the messily Brexiting UK?
It was widely thought Remain would win the referendum vote too. The facts showed differently. And there'll be one less populist party in the EP come April anyway, when the UK loses all it's EP seats.

I'm not a fan of Federalism, but it hasn't done the U.S. any harm, has it?

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
That's a good point. But it'll be interesting to see how that goes if enough MEPs refuse to rubber stamp anything. Then we have the matter of the 30 elected commissioners, appointed six months after the elections, approved by the MEPS and picked by the commission president who is him/herself appointed by the member states. I think even you should be able to appreciate how significant the populist winds of change can be to the EU. In some ways it could be well timed, forcing the EU to adapt so that it does not die. Question is, is there anything fundamentally good about the EU that is worth saving? I'd say yes there is along the lines of a loose cooperation of independent nation states, each with full control of their national borders, economies, currencies and laws.

As for whether a populist takeover will happen or not, it aint over until the fat lady sings ....But it's certainly got much of the EU ruling elite rattled!

https://www.politico.eu/article/comm...ment-election/

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-dead-struggle

https://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/in...populism-10416
The EU Commission proposes laws, the EU Council of Ministers agree to some of them, and those are then voted on at the EP. If the EP decides not to support a law, it either goes back to be looked at again, or it's discarded.

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
Merkel and Macron are desperate to weaken further their nation states and form a federal army so that they can suppress any other nations who may be thinking of bolting. A dangerous dangerous pair.

And then we have this power hungry lunatic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-3DsJ4jyP8
For some reason, your video shows Verhofstadt instead of Farage.

Merkel and Macron must be doing something right to be leading members of the EU. What's stopped the UK from being a leader as well? I'll give you a clue, it's not Germany or France.

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
No, by full independence I mean all sovereign decisions are made and will continue to be made in the UK. No other entity can pass laws that the UK will automatically be subject to. The rest you know, such as control of who enters and leaves the country, and so on.
No problem, let's leave the EU with no deal. If the UK had been a leading member of the EU in the same way Germany is, would sovereignty even be an issue?

Remember though, that any EU law passed that affects the UK has already been through the EU Council of Ministers (with the UK PM's involvement) and the EP (with the UK's 73 MEPs, or at least the ones that turn up). Then the UK Parliament gets involved.

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Do you have a source for this?
Nine EU states sign off on joint military intervention force
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Old Dec 22nd 2018, 10:09 am
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Good points made about globalisation being good but globalism bad. It looks like its going to be a challenging year ahead for the EU:

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Old Dec 22nd 2018, 11:10 am
  #57  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
Good points made about globalisation being good but globalism bad. It looks like its going to be a challenging year ahead for the EU:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr3Nosjgw6A
More fantastical Youcrap from our isolationist in Aus.
like all his other forcasts will prove to be the usual steaming pile of doo doos. .
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Old Dec 22nd 2018, 11:48 am
  #58  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
Good points made about globalisation being good but globalism bad. It looks like its going to be a challenging year ahead for the EU:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr3Nosjgw6A
Considering your source, Black Pigeon Speaks, I'll pass on watching your clickbait.

Felix Lace,[1] better known as Black Pigeon Speaks (BPS), is a YouTube talker who supports pigeons alt-right talking points, numerous conspiracy theories, all-capping the same words a ton of times,[2] and various other bigoted positions (like believing women and immigrants destroy civilization) while presenting them as if they were fact. He often supports his statements from misleading wingnut sources, showing only their scary headlines while the sources misrepresent studies, cite flawed studies, or even have body text that contradicts the headlines.
As of October 2018, Black Pigeon's channel had over 395,000 subscribers and 48 million views,[3] which is one among countless examples that show you don't need to be educated, honest, or careful about the sources that back up your claims to be profitable when you say things people like to hear.
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Old Dec 22nd 2018, 3:57 pm
  #59  
 
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
Good points made about globalisation being good but globalism bad. It looks like its going to be a challenging year ahead for the EU:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr3Nosjgw6A
You don't really think anyone is going to click on that image do you?
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Old Dec 22nd 2018, 4:46 pm
  #60  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Considering your source, Black Pigeon Speaks, I'll pass on watching your clickbait.
Ha! And you use the very irrational ratiionalwiki to argue your point?

One of the more flattering opinions on Rationalwiki:

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