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The future populist-run EU

The future populist-run EU

Old Nov 20th 2018, 12:42 pm
  #31  
 
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

I don’t always agree with paulry but why not actually engage him on his points rather than attempts at knowing sarcasm supported by endless strawmen, non-sequiturs and insults?
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 12:58 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
No, by full independence I mean all sovereign decisions are made and will continue to be made in the UK. No other entity can pass laws that the UK will automatically be subject to. The rest you know, such as control of who enters and leaves the country, and so on.
Acts of Parliament rubber stamp EU law in the UK, the UK could better control its borders, so never really understood the 'sovereignty' argument.

Somebody voluntarily joins a club and its committee, contributes in making the rules, pays subs and takes advantage of the benefits. He becomes influential, a little curmudgeonly, and allowed to opt out of various activities that don't suit. He has the freedom to follow the rules, flout the rules and be thrown out, or simply walk away. Nobody would suggest the member of that club as having lost control of his actions or emasculated in any way, and therefore best served by leaving the club !

Last edited by iano; Nov 20th 2018 at 1:03 pm.
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 1:39 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
I don’t always agree with paulry but why not actually engage him on his points rather than attempts at knowing sarcasm supported by endless strawmen, non-sequiturs and insults?
It's not exactly one way traffic.

And I've made some perfectly valid points here and elsewhere which he doesn't seem all that interested in answering.
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 1:46 pm
  #34  
 
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
It's not exactly one way traffic.

And I've made some perfectly valid points here and elsewhere which he doesn't seem all that interested in answering.
You are the honourable exception Eric. Your comments unfortunately often get lost in the noise caused by all the mudslingers and ranters, this thread being a perfect example.
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 2:50 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
And God bless you too.
I don't believe in god myself, but I'm going to choose to take this as if it was Dave Allen saying it and not whatever patronizing way you presumably meant it to be.
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 2:50 pm
  #36  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
I don’t always agree with paulry but why not actually engage him on his points rather than attempts at knowing sarcasm supported by endless strawmen, non-sequiturs and insults?
When he ever actually has a point, then that will happen.
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 5:25 pm
  #37  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
I'm a British expat just like most of the others on this site. Where have I ever said the UK should relinquish control to anyone? I've consistently said Britain needs full independence, accountable to no-one but it's voters. Do you have a problem with that?

I'm intrigued about your comments about the US, it doesn't sound like you like it very much. Why is that exactly? The US and the UK have a long history of coming to each others assistance in times of need. They might not be nearest neighbours but the two countries are amongst each others nearest friends, and I have no doubt that they shall remain so. And we don't have to be in political union with or governed by the US or pay vast sums of money in order to remain so.

Other than that, sure, you can call me names, personally attack and insult me, but it says more about you than it does me.
If you see what I wrote as a personal attack? ,name calling ? and or an insult ! I am at a loss as to see why? Its you who constantly comes up with half baked ideas about the UK leaving the EU. What the EU is up to ,an expert on its affairs in fact . Then there is a blank. A nothingness. A void. You have nothing to say about the UK's future post EU.
I do like the USA .My ED lives there ,i have relatives and close friends who live there. What I don't like is the Government, and its policies.
You seem to have an incredible naivety where thats concerned. The UK and the USA being best buddies ? I suggest you read Noam Chomsky's book 'Who rules the world' recommended a few times before on BE but obviously flown right past you.
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 7:48 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by GeniB View Post
If you see what I wrote as a personal attack? ,name calling ? and or an insult !
Well, you did say "You are indeed a troll.. not very bright... but a troll never the less" so perhaps he took that as being personal attack rather than the statement of fact it obviously is.
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 8:36 pm
  #39  
 
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
I don’t always agree with paulry but why not actually engage him on his points rather than attempts at knowing sarcasm supported by endless strawmen, non-sequiturs and insults?

I have spent years engaging him on his points. Years, I tell you.

It just doesn't do any bloody good, and some of his points are well beneath the bar of acceptability in my book - there is no rule that says I have to respond politely to that sort of thing.

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Nov 20th 2018 at 8:39 pm.
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 8:40 pm
  #40  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by iano View Post
Acts of Parliament rubber stamp EU law in the UK, the UK could better control its borders, so never really understood the 'sovereignty' argument.

Somebody voluntarily joins a club and its committee, contributes in making the rules, pays subs and takes advantage of the benefits. He becomes influential, a little curmudgeonly, and allowed to opt out of various activities that don't suit. He has the freedom to follow the rules, flout the rules and be thrown out, or simply walk away. Nobody would suggest the member of that club as having lost control of his actions or emasculated in any way, and therefore best served by leaving the club !
I don't dismiss what you've said, it is valid but it is a sub-issue of one of two much larger issues, which at a high level are:

1. British voters have been dragged against their will into a Federalist state under the initial guise of just being a trading block of nation states. Successive British governments denied voters the ability to indicate their consent for continued membership of the entity that has morphed from a Trading Common Market to the Federalist European Union. I'm not sure that asking for consent would have helped anyway because in most of the countries where voters were given that opportunity, if the decision was not a nod to continue, the decision was either ignored or the voters forced to vote in another referendum until they came back with the right answer. This appears to be the way things are going in the UK this time around too, with the British establishment refusing to accept the result of the referendum and doing everything in it's power to undo it. Culpability percentages: UK establishment 80%, EU leadership 20%.

2. The European Union which morphed from a Trading Block to a Federalist Union is not responding to the wishes of the voters of the nation states that it claims to represent. It is becoming clear that voters and nation states want less Federation yet the Federation is responding by giving them more Federation and seeking to grab more powers. It's not very democratic, it's structure resembles the USSR far more than it does the USA. Those states that step out of line they seek to bully and punish. Every challenge seems to be used as justification for more EU. Apart from countries like Hungary, Poland and (more recently) Italy and Austria, the nation state members have been uncritical of the European Union's excesses. Culpability percentages: European Union leadership 60%, Member state governments 40%.
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 10:11 pm
  #41  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

This is a yet another crap thread, composed of made-up fakeness, in order to justify an archaic ideological viewpoint.

There is little to gain from sensible debate. It would be ignored anyway. Might as well just have fun with it.
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 10:23 pm
  #42  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
I don't dismiss what you've said, it is valid but it is a sub-issue of one of two much larger issues, which at a high level are:........
Thanks for the comprehensive reply, but I'm now confused Paulry, as we were discussing perceived loss of UK sovereignty to the EU ??? Your high level issues, in the main, are an attack on the UK Government, blue and red, and its actions over many years. Overall, your own rating % weighting makes the UK more culpable for these issues than the EU ! Perhaps your beef shouldn't be with the EU, but the UK establishment.
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Old Nov 20th 2018, 11:09 pm
  #43  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by iano View Post
Thanks for the comprehensive reply, but I'm now confused Paulry, as we were discussing perceived loss of UK sovereignty to the EU ??? Your high level issues, in the main, are an attack on the UK Government, blue and red, and its actions over many years. Overall, your own rating % weighting makes the UK more culpable for these issues than the EU ! Perhaps your beef shouldn't be with the EU, but the UK establishment.
Yes, it is the UK establishment that is most at fault in regard to the UK's membership of the EU and handling of Brexit. My above post was to help bring you back on track with the thread because what you were talking about was not really the heart of the issue which is point 1, and that in any case is more relevant for discussion in the Brexit threads.

This thread is about the May 2019 EU elections and the likelihood that the results of those elections will make populists a formidable force in it - which has everything to do with my point 2, above. And sure, the EU is only 60% culpable in that one. It is only behaving the way that it is because many of the EU's member states, especially it's leading ones are allowing and/or encouraging it to.
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Old Nov 21st 2018, 8:43 am
  #44  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I did tackle him a week or two back on the matter of trolling and he swore blind he doesn't, so I guess we have to take everything he posts at face value as his true beliefs unless it's very clearly marked otherwise.

I'm wondering why, if this loose co-operation / trading bloc is such a good idea, it couldn't be set up amongst a load of countries which aren't members of the EU? Apparently there are a whole slew of those in Europe and the vast majority of the world is further beyond still. The UK could set something up with them and dispense with any of the inconvenient bits, like having a mechanism for ensuring the rules are abided by. Then they could all sign up to any agreements they wanted without fear of actually having to stick to them. I can think of quite a number of countries which would probably be up for that.
As BritInParis correctly identified, your post was lost in all the garbage spewed out by those who prefer to childishly attack and abuse me than to discuss the topic at hand.

While yes there is room for a trading only block I personally think it is behind the times by as much as 50 years. We really don't need it, we just need to trade with each other freely on mutually fair terms. No membership fees and additional out of touch bureaucrats uming and ahing over rules are necessary. I predict that is exactly what the populists who take over the EU will realise.
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Old Nov 21st 2018, 9:36 am
  #45  
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Default Re: The future populist-run EU

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
This thread is about the May 2019 EU elections and the likelihood that the results of those elections will make populists a formidable force in it - which has everything to do with my point 2
OK, well we can't second guess elections in May, but don't forget that while EU member states continue to determine EU treaties, the EU itself can't really be described as a federation, creeping or otherwise.

Regarding your repeated refs to "EU Army"...the Joint European defence initiative, signed up to by the UK, is nothing to do with the EU as we'll continue to be a member post Brexit.
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