Equality!

Old Feb 9th 2020, 5:27 am
  #46  
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
I daren't mention the name of the country with the most women airline pilots!
Years ago on a domestic flight stopover two women in uniform stepped out of the cockpit----I said to OH-- "look we have an all women crew". "Must be the cleaners"--he said. Daughters and self have never let him forget it!!
I bet he regrets that remark!
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 5:29 am
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I believe it's the past
Yes, in a cave (one of the preferred habitats of trolls)
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 5:35 am
  #48  
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by Sugarmooma View Post
Good Lord! Are you really so shortsighted? I'm not sure what world you live in but it certainly isn't the real world.
Shortsighted? What sort of context is that? My real world was as a professional Fireman for thirty years in London, doesn't get any more real than that. I knew of women in the Brigade who were better at the job than some men. What that means is those men shouldn't have been Firemen either!!! Maybe a little complicated for you.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 5:45 am
  #49  
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
May I also refer you to the decades of research (Kenneth Hickman 1983, Sean Grennan 1989, Claremont Graduate School 1990) of the successful outcomes of woman police officers, including violent situations because of different skill sets that tend to predominate with gender roles. Your conservative perspective views solutions in one way, a way, when all male, requires strength and force, despite research and experience suggesting otherwise. No one is advocating an all women police force, you were creating strawmen. But all male policing is also not ideal. Men, by and large just don't have the deescalation skills
From experience I know that women in all services play a very useful role. The fact does remain though that by far the majority of women are not suitable for the physical aspects of whatever profession. I haven't said there shouldn't be Policewomen or female firefighters but the work they do should be geared to their physical attributes. I have said elsewhere that there are women who do a better job than some of their male counterparts but that simply means the male counterpart shouldn't be in that environment either!!! Horses for courses. In any event no one should be appointed simply because of their gender and that is what is happening to the detriment of many services.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 6:48 am
  #50  
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Default Re: Equality!

At least they're "useful". Otherwise, where would you put them all?
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 8:26 am
  #51  
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Tell you what - if any of the women round here want to be whatever it is they shouldn't, I'm certainly not going to argue with them!

Most of 'em could probably stop a brawl by voice alone but gawd help anyone who didn't heed the warning.

Seen plenty in this country doing all the aforementioned, including trash collection.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 11:18 am
  #52  
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Reading that Angela Leadsom wants more women in the cabinet makes me wonder if equality is something she really wants or is simply fighting her corner for women i.e. gender! Shouldn't it be 'the best for the job'? She maybe doesn't want real equality as that would mean women being excluded because they are unsuitable for the job, i. e. the military, Police or Fire Service for example where physical attributes are more important. Her idea of equality ie simply an equal number of women and men in a particular organisation, i.e. gender equality regardless of quality or suitability for the job.

There are positions where women are far more suitable than men but this is never an issue but It is always an issue where there are more men than women! I doubt she wants equality based on suitability rather than equality based on gender and that is, in my view, totally unacceptable.
I'm sure there are many jobs where women are disadvantaged against males, and other jobs where the opposite applies, but whatever the job, if the person has passed the requirements for the job, I couldn't care less whether they're male, female, or whatever they want to label themselves, as long as they're competent. As for some women doing a better job than some men, and the comment that those men shouldn't be in the job either, it doesn't automatically follow that the competent woman shouldn't be in the job.

Let's take a different approach at this. A woman can feed her baby with breast milk direct from source, but a man can't. Equality would be giving the man milk glands, equity would be giving him a bottle filled with breast milk to be able to feed the baby. Removing the barriers would be giving them formula milk in case the woman was unable to breast feed. Maybe not a perfect analogy, but the only one I could think of.



Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
They do in Europe but the point is do they do it as well?
I don't know. Do assholes make good mouths..... Probably not, but each has a role to play in the system, and there are jobs a 5ft 3in 110lb firefighter is going to have an advantage over someone a foot taller and 40lb heavier.

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
I'm not into this divisive identity-politics-driven, forced quota malarky. Everyone should be given fair opportunity to apply for whatever job they wish to and be given a fair go based on the results of their tested capabilities and willingness to do the job. In other words the selection process should be transparent to applicants and appeal-able.
I agree.

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Women choose not to be garbage collectors. Begs the question, which is the more intelligent gender.
Definitely smarter. And many garbage trucks in the UK use bin lifts these days, so the physical lifting is less.

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Old Feb 9th 2020, 1:32 pm
  #53  
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
I'm sure there are many jobs where women are disadvantaged against males, and other jobs where the opposite applies, but whatever the job, if the person has passed the requirements for the job, I couldn't care less whether they're male, female, or whatever they want to label themselves, as long as they're competent. As for some women doing a better job than some men, and the comment that those men shouldn't be in the job either, it doesn't automatically follow that the competent woman shouldn't be in the job.

Let's take a different approach at this. A woman can feed her baby with breast milk direct from source, but a man can't. Equality would be giving the man milk glands, equity would be giving him a bottle filled with breast milk to be able to feed the baby. Removing the barriers would be giving them formula milk in case the woman was unable to breast feed. Maybe not a perfect analogy, but the only one I could think of.





I don't know. Do assholes make good mouths..... Probably not, but each has a role to play in the system, and there are jobs a 5ft 3in 110lb firefighter is going to have an advantage over someone a foot taller and 40lb heavier.



I agree.



Definitely smarter. And many garbage trucks in the UK use bin lifts these days, so the physical lifting is less.

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Lots of very smart answers but the point remains should women, or men for that matter, be appointed because of their gender? I don't think so. The point becomes refined when they are employed because of their gender and the discussion goes off subject as people start talking about dustmen etc. and women can do the job just as well. Not the point is it?
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 1:37 pm
  #54  
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Default Re: Equality!

A quick read through this thread leads me to believe that we are all more or less in agreement but that we're not used to that so we're looking for something to argue about.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 1:59 pm
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Lots of very smart answers but the point remains should women, or men for that matter, be appointed because of their gender? I don't think so. The point becomes refined when they are employed because of their gender and the discussion goes off subject as people start talking about dustmen etc. and women can do the job just as well. Not the point is it?
I thought your discussion was about whether women were capable of doing the same jobs as men as effectively. My point was that if they've met the requirements for that job, then they absolutely should be employed to do it if they choose to.

If we're now moving on to discussing whether women should be appointed because of their gender, well that depends on certain factors. Political parties for example, have been actively pushing for female candidates over males to improve the balance of MPs within their parties, which can be a good thing as long as males are not excluded from standing. It's wrong that a large percentage of MPs are male when the population of the country is almost 50-50 male-female. But certain jobs are exempted from equal opportunities, and rightly so.

In my line of work, only females can (and should) search females, and males search males. In that context, and everything else being equal (qualifications, experience and aptitude), a female applicant will likely get the job over a male because of her gender because we need more staff able to search females (especially at events where these would make up a greater percentage of attendees). But they'll still be the best candidate for the job they're being hired to do, and will have met or exceeded the requirement of the job application.

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Old Feb 9th 2020, 4:06 pm
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
A quick read through this thread leads me to believe that we are all more or less in agreement but that we're not used to that so we're looking for something to argue about.
No I'm not!
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 4:14 pm
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
No I'm not!
Oh yes you are.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 6:37 pm
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
No I'm not!
Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
Oh yes you are.

She's behind you!





I'm not sure she deserves this though.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 8:26 pm
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
I thought your discussion was about whether women were capable of doing the same jobs as men as effectively. My point was that if they've met the requirements for that job, then they absolutely should be employed to do it if they choose to.

If we're now moving on to discussing whether women should be appointed because of their gender, well that depends on certain factors. Political parties for example, have been actively pushing for female candidates over males to improve the balance of MPs within their parties, which can be a good thing as long as males are not excluded from standing. It's wrong that a large percentage of MPs are male when the population of the country is almost 50-50 male-female. But certain jobs are exempted from equal opportunities, and rightly so.

In my line of work, only females can (and should) search females, and males search males. In that context, and everything else being equal (qualifications, experience and aptitude), a female applicant will likely get the job over a male because of her gender because we need more staff able to search females (especially at events where these would make up a greater percentage of attendees). But they'll still be the best candidate for the job they're being hired to do, and will have met or exceeded the requirement of the job application.
You thought wrong. It was simply should women be preferred because of their gender. No certain factors. Is it right or wrong? You want it both ways; you can't.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 9:11 pm
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Default Re: Equality!

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
You thought wrong. It was simply should women be preferred because of their gender. No certain factors. Is it right or wrong? You want it both ways; you can't.
You do realise that it's illegal to state a preference for female job applicants in the UK, don't you? Unless it's for an exempted category.

No, everything being equal, I have no preference for either a male or female co-worker. As long as they're qualified and can do the job they're employed for, it's irrelevant. Let's look at it this way, would you prefer a male because of their gender? And if the answer's yes, why?

Here's a question relating to what I said earlier about searching. Would you prefer a female to search your wife/partner for entry to a gig or event, or a male?

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