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Enter the Wokeness

Enter the Wokeness

Old Jul 22nd 2020, 9:35 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
A someone who teachers in a US school, this might be worth reviewing for third party observers.
Nothing in US schools is Marxist. The history teaching is not Marxist. So we should consider what the right identify as Marxist.
Is history taught from a Dialectical Materialist perspective? Absolutely not. Is the American Revolution taught as a Bourgeoisie Revolution? Absolutely not.
Does American history now get taught as a system involving loss and gain by various groups? yes it does (not two or three groups based on class), how else do the right actually think it should be taught? The traditional way of gain only and the losers, if mentioned, are deserved. Class and economic disparity might get a mention, but reflecting American culture it is still close to taboo. American definitions of class are still routinely used, and neither students nor staff have an understanding on how class is defined in Marxist terms. The working class are still considered by almost everyone as being Middle Class. Almost everyone identifies as Middle Class. Class is still an unknown political concept to most Americans in school or outside of school.
There is absolute no lowering of standards, everything is about raising standards and expectations, there is an acknowledgment of disparity in how discipline was enforced and on how expectations for different groups were, well different, everything now is about highering academic expectations. for all students.Standards based grading (the emerging standard way to assess in US schools) is a tool in ensuring that students are assessed on accomplishment and not on teacher prejudice.
I'm not certain, but I think the anti-woke term Marxist is being applied in the sense of cultural Marxism, as a movement to replace one set of cultural values with another.
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Old Jul 22nd 2020, 9:38 pm
  #77  
 
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I don't think it's quite that straight forward. Readings and discussions from "various points of view" can in reality be one sided and prone to manipulation. That's exactly the issue that is being raised here with cancel culture. Did you follow the issue a year ago regarding Brett Weinstein at Evergreen State College? Students acting in that dogmatic and vindictive pattern are the evidence that there is problem within the system. The fact that there are many serious academics commenting on this phenomena suggests it is not just the fantasy of YouTube blowhards.

The issue isn't being raised. An issue is being declared as existing by a tendentious and highly-selective youtube video posted with a specific agenda in mind.

And yes, as I mentioned at the outset there are many serious articles, essays and whole books on our current system and content of education. There have always been these of course. In my parents' day they were taught the virtues of Empire and a highly-selective version of world history. Then I was taught something else again, with some at least of those blanks filled in and a perspective on what was taught the previous generation and why. Now it's happening again. It's nothing new. And yet, young people remain remarkably resilient and independent of thought. Some old gits are just uncomfortable with change It's not up to us to control the world view of the young, and indeed we cannot. They will sort it out for themselves.
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Old Jul 22nd 2020, 9:39 pm
  #78  
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I'm not certain, but I think the anti-woke term Marxist is being applied in the sense of cultural Marxism, as a movement to replace one set of cultural values with another.
How does that get expressed in say the teaching of History? It is by actually teaching the history? As I said by talking about the gains and the losses of different groups of Americans? As opposed to the traditional approach of only discussing the gains of some peoples.
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Old Jul 22nd 2020, 9:43 pm
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
A someone who teachers in a US school, this might be worth reviewing for third party observers.
Nothing in US schools is Marxist. The history teaching is not Marxist. So we should consider what the right identify as Marxist.
Is history taught from a Dialectical Materialist perspective? Absolutely not. Is the American Revolution taught as a Bourgeoisie Revolution? Absolutely not.
Does American history now get taught as a system involving loss and gain by various groups? yes it does (not two or three groups based on class), how else do the right actually think it should be taught? The traditional way of gain only and the losers, if mentioned, are deserved. Class and economic disparity might get a mention, but reflecting American culture it is still close to taboo. American definitions of class are still routinely used, and neither students nor staff have an understanding on how class is defined in Marxist terms. The working class are still considered by almost everyone as being Middle Class. Almost everyone identifies as Middle Class. Class is still an unknown political concept to most Americans in school or outside of school.
There is absolute no lowering of standards, everything is about raising standards and expectations, there is an acknowledgment of disparity in how discipline was enforced and on how expectations for different groups were, well different, everything now is about highering academic expectations. for all students.Standards based grading (the emerging standard way to assess in US schools) is a tool in ensuring that students are assessed on accomplishment and not on teacher prejudice.

That was certainly my son's experience, although due to being in a school district with one high school, we had a more varied student body than many.

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Old Jul 22nd 2020, 10:04 pm
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Shard
I've lost the post I want to comment on
When I lived and worked in Korea, many women would talk about feminist and gender issues, but usually beginning "I learned in my gender studies class...." this surprised me, it was like learning had not happened but the transference of information had occurred, now who an I to criticize? It was in a country under going rapid social change with a very dominant male social structure and history; citing their sources may well have been a way to give credibility to their argument rather than the way it came across to me at the time, that learning had not really happened.
There is a level of this feeling that I get from today University education too, I have done a number of credits, visual arts and computing when I was unemployed, and education credits professionally - and its all been excellent. I have also sat in a number of example classes presented to potential students, I had a similar feeling during these classes that the students were echoing what they had been taught rather than expressing actual learning.
The word "racist" is a good example. I welcome the academic definition, I think it is more meaningful and more useful than the colloquial definition, Where I have difficulty with how it is used by many now, is that is is used within the context of discourse using the logical fallacy of an argument from definition. when a person insists that everyone is wrong because they are using a single definition and refusing to acknowledge alternative definitions. I am skeptical of any hegemony making unwarranted changes to a culture, even when that hegemony is Universities and from learned people. It is like students go to University, learn a specific definition and think it is a revelation that it is the only definition. Now this may be similar to the case in Korea, that ideas of equality have been so repressed in America and from social discourse that people may feel the need to cite their arguments sources to give them validity. But I am still left feeling that actual learning may not have happened.
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Old Jul 22nd 2020, 10:13 pm
  #81  
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
A someone who teachers in a US school, this might be worth reviewing for third party observers.
Nothing in US schools is Marxist. The history teaching is not Marxist. So we should consider what the right identify as Marxist.
Is history taught from a Dialectical Materialist perspective? Absolutely not. Is the American Revolution taught as a Bourgeoisie Revolution? Absolutely not.
Does American history now get taught as a system involving loss and gain by various groups? yes it does (not two or three groups based on class), how else do the right actually think it should be taught? The traditional way of gain only and the losers, if mentioned, are deserved. Class and economic disparity might get a mention, but reflecting American culture it is still close to taboo. American definitions of class are still routinely used, and neither students nor staff have an understanding on how class is defined in Marxist terms. The working class are still considered by almost everyone as being Middle Class. Almost everyone identifies as Middle Class. Class is still an unknown political concept to most Americans in school or outside of school.
There is absolute no lowering of standards, everything is about raising standards and expectations, there is an acknowledgment of disparity in how discipline was enforced and on how expectations for different groups were, well different, everything now is about highering academic expectations. for all students.Standards based grading (the emerging standard way to assess in US schools) is a tool in ensuring that students are assessed on accomplishment and not on teacher prejudice.
I might be tempted to take your word for it ....If you were not one of the wokest posters on BE.

Ditto: Lion in Winter and her protestations.




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Old Jul 22nd 2020, 10:19 pm
  #82  
 
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
I might be tempted to take your word for it ....If you were not one of the wokest posters on BE.

Ditto: Lion in Winter and her protestations.


I could put my protestations in a video with some big fonts and shouty men, and add it to a channel of overtly racist content if that would help at all? Maybe some t shirt or vitamin sales as well?
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Old Jul 22nd 2020, 10:22 pm
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
I might be tempted to take your word for it ....If you were not one of the wokest posters on BE.

Ditto: Lion in Winter and her protestations.

This is why my post was not addressed to you.
But you should rest assured that I manage as an individual to get class politics in to almost everything, quite going against the grain, but I do my part.
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Old Jul 23rd 2020, 12:17 am
  #84  
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Thanks for the TLDR. TLDW more precisely ! I don't think indoctrinating students on white privilege is a fruitful idea, it's divisive, and not the way to resolve the historical imbalance.
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
The issue isn't being raised. An issue is being declared as existing by a tendentious and highly-selective youtube video posted with a specific agenda in mind.
@ Shard - I don't know if it's a mission statement or what, but the uploader of that video says this:
Originally Posted by Deron Slater
Please make sure to watch the first install of The CABAL are sexually after your children. I need your help to gain exposure and to united this country in sending a powerful message to liberals that we have had enough.
I'm not sure how anyone could take the offerings of such a person seriously. It's like taking David Icke seriously.
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Old Jul 23rd 2020, 2:55 am
  #85  
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Tough times to be a Progressive Parent.

Progressive Parents Disappointed In How White Their Children Are

PORTLAND, OR—John and Julie Newman are dedicated progressives, active in every cause and contributing regularly to Black Lives Matter. Despite this, their children, Cayden and Evergreen, have turned out wrong. “They’re just so white,” explained Julie, not hiding her disappointment. “I don’t know what we did wrong.”

John and Julie are trying to make a better world, and part of that is battling white supremacy and whiteness in general. Their kids, though, just seem to be furthering that problem. “When I think of their future,” John said, “I see them excelling in exciting careers -- which is horrible, because they’re white and need to leave those opportunities for others.”

Last edited by Jerseygirl; Jul 23rd 2020 at 12:48 pm. Reason: Copyright
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Old Jul 23rd 2020, 1:17 pm
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Peter has made some excellent points.

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Old Jul 23rd 2020, 7:22 pm
  #87  
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
The issue isn't being raised. An issue is being declared as existing by a tendentious and highly-selective youtube video posted with a specific agenda in mind.

And yes, as I mentioned at the outset there are many serious articles, essays and whole books on our current system and content of education. There have always been these of course. In my parents' day they were taught the virtues of Empire and a highly-selective version of world history. Then I was taught something else again, with some at least of those blanks filled in and a perspective on what was taught the previous generation and why. Now it's happening again. It's nothing new. And yet, young people remain remarkably resilient and independent of thought. Some old gits are just uncomfortable with change It's not up to us to control the world view of the young, and indeed we cannot. They will sort it out for themselves.
This seems to be a policy of step aside, don't question change.
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Old Jul 23rd 2020, 7:29 pm
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
This seems to be a policy of step aside, don't question change.

You can question it. But you (we) overestimate your ability to stop it from happening and over-index the importance of things you personally dislike. Twas ever thus. I, along with my entire generation, was going to be destroyed by a)too much tv b)too much hair on men c)cannabis d) the wrong music e)too much sex f)the wrong clothes etc etc etc. Those things all changed anyway, and we all survived.

It is actually possible to learn from people younger than yourself, and sometimes they are right and we are wrong.
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Old Jul 23rd 2020, 7:37 pm
  #89  
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Shard
I've lost the post I want to comment on
When I lived and worked in Korea, many women would talk about feminist and gender issues, but usually beginning "I learned in my gender studies class...." this surprised me, it was like learning had not happened but the transference of information had occurred, now who an I to criticize? It was in a country under going rapid social change with a very dominant male social structure and history; citing their sources may well have been a way to give credibility to their argument rather than the way it came across to me at the time, that learning had not really happened.
There is a level of this feeling that I get from today University education too, I have done a number of credits, visual arts and computing when I was unemployed, and education credits professionally - and its all been excellent. I have also sat in a number of example classes presented to potential students, I had a similar feeling during these classes that the students were echoing what they had been taught rather than expressing actual learning.
The word "racist" is a good example. I welcome the academic definition, I think it is more meaningful and more useful than the colloquial definition, Where I have difficulty with how it is used by many now, is that is is used within the context of discourse using the logical fallacy of an argument from definition. when a person insists that everyone is wrong because they are using a single definition and refusing to acknowledge alternative definitions. I am skeptical of any hegemony making unwarranted changes to a culture, even when that hegemony is Universities and from learned people. It is like students go to University, learn a specific definition and think it is a revelation that it is the only definition. Now this may be similar to the case in Korea, that ideas of equality have been so repressed in America and from social discourse that people may feel the need to cite their arguments sources to give them validity. But I am still left feeling that actual learning may not have happened.
This is why discussion is so important. There is no one definition of things, and trying to control the definition is a tactic that some groups use. Recently, the tactic has been to re-define and control what constitutues racism, setting up a Kafkatrap for those who dispute it. The charge certainly seems to be that equality has been repressed in America, but the question is whether that is indeed the case or whether it is a legacy effect from what was indeed systematic racism up until the late 20th century. Ask Oprah or Will Smith or Kanye West about how repressed they have been? There are a myriad of non-celebrity doctors, lawyers, scientists, and professors whom you could ask too. I'm of course not asserting that just because we have an Oprah and Obama that racism no longer exists in America (some would suggest that's exactly what I'm asserting - it isn't) I'm saying using that as a starting point, question the validity of the claim that sytematic racism remains pervasive. My sense is that the issue is more one of social inequality than racial inequality, though I accept a degree on interdependency, and that tackling the social/class issues is a better way forward than stoking racial division.
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Old Jul 23rd 2020, 7:39 pm
  #90  
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Default Re: Enter the Wokeness

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
@ Shard - I don't know if it's a mission statement or what, but the uploader of that video says this:

I'm not sure how anyone could take the offerings of such a person seriously. It's like taking David Icke seriously.
I certainly don't take shouty videos seriously; but if there's a grain of truth within them, I'm happy to acknowledge the point.
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